Leni Riefenstahl, R.I.P.

[art_karr]

Politics aside, I think she made a tremendous contribution to our

understanding of history. She documented what occurred in

Germany in a way that had never happened before and will,

probably, never be permitted again [it's the trial thing]. Her later

work was good but her place in history is with the

documentaries. We know that the Soviet leaders were haunted

by the film of the olympics when the were building Soviet

leadership in sports. No leader can hold great demonstrations

without reference to her films in the world press. She

demonstrated that at one time art had a role.

 

Art

[eric_onore]

Todd,

 

Furthermore, how can we fail to see Riefenstahl as a cohort of Hitler, when in fact she willingly was.

[olivier_reichenbach]

Mr Bender says: «The life-long villification has been slapped on her because she... shot 2 films

for the Nazies...», undoubtedly implying «...shot ONLY two films for the Nazis...» Well, is there

a set number of films one has to make to be considered a regime's servant, especially when

said regime is as revolting as Hitler's? Two films is already two too many.

 

As for not knowing what the Nazis were all about, give me a break! «Mein kampf», in which

Hitler exposed his racist and anti-semitic views, was published in 1925. Surely, Mrs Riefenstahl,

must have had heard of it by the 1936 Berlin Olympics, and the well documented dismay of

Hitler at African-American Jesse Owen's victories in track and field.

 

Further, Mr Bender says: «That could not have been forgiven by the Jewish Hollywood.» This

little sentence in itself explains why he sides with Hitler's filmmaker Riefenstahl.

 

Many talented artists or scientists either left Germany under the Nazis, or fought against them.

Mrs Riefenstahl did not. She stayed and made films to the glory of her masters. And she did

become friend with Hitler.

 

That said, may she rest in peace.

[michael_bender]

No, comparing the USA now to Germany just moving into the WWII is not far-fetched. Your mistake is in full hidsight and in that you are illogically claiming equivalence or parallel between the USA now and Germany as we knew it by the end of the War. Extermination camps did not exactly appear in the 193something, did they?<br>

On the other hand, concentration camps HAVE been created by the Amricans already, no due process, no adminssion of lawyers, no full court - both in Guantanamo, in Afghanistan, and in Iraq, where people can disappear and/or be killed in the camps and torture plus serious deprivation exists - and not for hardened opponents to the occupants, but to a Dutch sitizen, or an accidentally grabbed 13-year-old, to cite 2 examples.<br>

Internally, people have been tricked to show up as if to register with the Immigrations, then thrown to Immigration jail, even though their documents were in order, then quietly kicked out of the country.<br>

Internally, demonstrations and protests that block road traffic can be classified as "terrorism" with the corresponding multi-year prison terms<br>

Internally, artists expressing disagreement with the administration were prevented from accessing radio stations and TV<br>

Internally, ....... <br>

You have been taught how Jews were first registered, then prevented from working in some places, then from teaching, then from owning cars, then were relocated ti live in Jewish houses, then......<br>

Just substitute Muslims and see how the sequence begins to look.<br>

 

I can continue on that subject for a very long time<p>

 

 

Economic problems in the USA are enormous, and are the real generators of the last war, so comparison with Germany will also stand<br>

The clique in power (with their own ideology based on teachings of Leo Strauss, which is disdainful of laws and common people) is also here.

<br>

But all that is not for the current thread

[jerry_pfile1]

She took images.

 

The majority on the forum capable of objective evaluation of those efforts I'm sure would conclude she was very good at it.

 

Her images will survive her.

 

Nothing else really deserves comment, on this forum at least.

 

Jerry

[michael_bender]

My remark entitled "previous" was addressed to Josh Root

[todd frederick]

One more thing...

 

During the late 1920's and 1930's, Edward Weston went to live in Mexico. Weston was a non-political person, based on his Daybooks. He was a friend of the great muralist, Diego Rivera (a communist), who was previously married to Frieda Cahlo (the movie "Frieda").

 

Does that make Weston a communist? Far from it!

 

We can not say that Ms Riefenstahl was a Nazi who supported genocide simply because she worked for Adolph Hitler. There are many ex-Nazis who appear regularly on documentary TV who are far from genocidal killers.

 

I doubt that Ms Riefenstahl was a raving genocidal Nazi.

[albert knapp md]

Eric Onore has hit the mark: a large number of Germans knew of

the dark side of the nazi regime and approved of it. This is

particularly true of the elite as was brought out in the Nuremburg

trials of 1945-7. The post-war claims of ignorance are

non-sense. I have never met a German who admitted serving in

the Wermacht and have been amused by their excuses,

contorsions and evasions. Leni was a geniius but she destroyed

herself by backing and in effect strengthening this horrible

regime. I don't believe for one nanosecond that she did not know

about the horrors perpetuated by her Fueher. This is confirmed

by her refusal to repent after the war. In fact, she continued to

DENY any of her association with the Nazis per se. In fact, she

had the nerve to call herself a "victim" of nazism! No surprise that

she continues to be reviled by anyone on this planet with an IQ of

100 or greater! Michael, your bigoted comment about "Jewish

Hollywood" is not only misinformed but obviously places you

below the 100 IQ mark. So sad to be bigoted and ignorant, but

hopefully you will grow out of it and learn.

[mr._kenny]

Mike,<br />

first, thanks for your insights, sincerely. in film classes i learned that eisenstein was kicked out of the russian film industry by stalin and only invited back when he let his films be edited by the state -- all until the second part of ivan the terrible, which was critical of stalin, and having seen that film and knowing the context, seemed pretty dead on with what we know about stalin today, at least in the west. if i'm wrong, 'brainwashed' as you put it by the united states educational system, take your argument up with them. and i also would suggest that your russian education may also have similar oversimplifications.<br />

your interest in defending leni R. including posting a picture of her here shows you have an admiration for her work, which i would guess most of us could agree on, if you could only take away the social and moral implications.<br />

matter of fact, i did think that what she does does deserve greater recognition, not for the corny mountain movies but mostly as a cinemategrapher, which she was truly a revolutionary. unfortunately she ends up bieng a lightning rod because of triumph of the will and olympia. especially triumph of the will.<br />

i don't know your references to eisenstein, and i don't doubt for a second that there is more to the story than 'winners write history' but do you really think that someone who sought hitler's freindship and patronage is not in some way going to be identified with him? i don't want to mischaracterize your arguments, but i would think that l.r. did seek to identify herself with one group over another -- and it doesn't seem she was coerced at any point in her decisions -- should she not be identified with hitler/nazis? why would an artist be allowed to move above the laws of indemnity more than a general or a soldier? do you agree?

<br />

regards

<br /><br />

Kenny

[paulr]

I am sure many of you have visited the concentration camps in Poland as I have. I wonder how many of her photographs are on display in those camps today? Did she photograph the camps? I have no artistic appreciation for those photographs. They document the horrible testimony of mans stewardship of this earth.

 

A long time friend of mine that recently passed away had the remenants of a concentration camp on his arm, tatooed numbers. I wonder what he would have felt about her.

[beau 1664876222]

At the time she made her two celebrated films, Riefenstahl would have known about the virulently racist and expansionist rhetoric that Hitler used from Day One. She could not have known just how sincere and horrifyingly effective he turned out to be, but that's not an excuse.

 

Many of us condemn her for allying herself with her country's government instead of defying them, but to the shame of the human race, an astonishingly small number of people passed that test. Reifenstahl's larger failing was after the war; to her dying day she refused to publicly confront the very difficult issues raised by her career and work.

 

It's clear that "Triumph" and "Olympia" are cinematic masterpieces; to deny it is wishful thinking. Her contributions to her art, combined with her horrendous misjudgments, make her a fascinating figure indeed.

[todd frederick]

To Eric Onore...

 

Agreed, it was more fear than knowledge of what was happening.

 

I think my point is that nothing is either totally good or evil. People have to do what they have to do. Leni was a photographer, not a Nazi general.

 

I brought up the issue of Mr. Bush because some will say that he is guilty of genocide: exterminating the Taliban and the Ba'athist Party, no questions asked.

 

I support his actions in Afghanistan and Iraq based on the problem of international terrorism (and, hopefully future action in North Korea...diplomatic or military) but I questions his priorities at times...especially with regard to neglect of social issues, the economy, medical care, and education.

 

Let's think the impossible:

 

What if I were designated the official photographer/videographer for Mr. Bush, and if Mr. Bush committed outrageous atrocities against the Taliban, the Ba'athist, the North Koreans, the Liberians, the Iranians, the Syrians, and such....and if I simple photographed the events...

 

...would that make me a co-conspitator and equally quilty?

 

Leni was a photographer and her photography should be evaluated on the basis of her photography and not her politics.

[michael_bender]

A. Knapp: my IQ is between 145 and 147, I did bother to measure it; our whole group in the University (a branch of physics), actually, did pretty well, with one person scoring beyond the limit of the scale, extrapolated it came to approx. 160<br>

Hollywood ownership has been Jewish since practically its inception, as far as I know. That you cannot admit and/or state that simple fact speaks a lot<br>

Mr. Kenny: I will try to answer in more detail to you<br>

[beau 1664876222]

Bender, the fact that there have been a number of noteworthy Jewish people in the film industry does not excuse your post, which is anti-Semitic in every sense.

 

I'm not Jewish, so anti-Semitic people sometimes (erroneously) feel free to vent their racism around me, and in my experience it almost always goes something like "Jewish Hollywood" or "Jewish Bankers" or "the Jewish political lobbies". The point is always the same, paraphrased as: "Jews are conspiratorial by nature and will benefit others of their ethnicity at the expense of doing the right thing." You're not unusual in your anti-Semitism, unfortunately, but you are wrong, and it's surprising that you would go ahead and spout these views in a public forum.

[alec1]

She was a wonderful photographer. AFAIK, she was never a member of the Nazi party. All she wanted to do was continue her photography. Her films are her legacy. Obviously, her work is viewed differently by different people because of her employer at the time. But, her work has endured the test of time. She paid a terrible price for it. RIP

[michael_bender]

You see, in manipulating an opponent first we produce a "hook" - and if and when he responds, we switch and come upon him, the manipulation finished. <br>

If you are not Jewish, do not be saintlier than the Pope. Next, the manipulative nature of your move is revealed in that you first state YOUR OWN assumptions - and next prosecute on YOUR assumptions. Just re-read your post.<br>

The USA is a very racist society, and race/nationality is the biggest taboo here. I can discuss mine, and easily admit both achievements and crimes of my compatriots.<br>

You cannot. You act as a VOLUNTARY censor to manipulatively shut up statements you dislike<br>

Hiding the obvious, refusing to admit publicly that the obvious exists - while actually acting on it is the definition of a hypocrite.<br>

I'd suggest you tried to answer at leat some of my questions about L.R. and the morality of the situation - and my understanding you feel incapable and threatened by those questions to resort to manipulation.

[eric_onore]

Todd,

 

The problem with your hypothetical is this; Riefenstahl eagerly associated with the Nazis and glorified in that association. Many of her friends and collegues in the German film industry were persecuted and/or murdered. This was of no import to her. Her overwhelming ambitions coincided with the grandious and deluded ambitions of Hitler. She felt nothing for the victims. She was not merely a documentarian or historian, but a willing participant in the glory of the Third Reich.

[Alex_Es]

I could forgive Riefenstahl if only she showed some kind of genuine

contrition after she, like the rest of the world, knew what Hitler

and the Nazis were all about. Instead she played the Eichmann card.

She wasn't at all for the Nazis, she said. She really didn't want to

make Triumph of the Will. But she was commissioned to do it. This

is somehow worse than associating with Hitler either as an admirer or

opportunist. (Riefenstahl was certainly the latter; the care she put

into Triumph of the Will suggests she was also the former.) She did

not care about the evil her filmwork promoted. She only cared about

her career. That is what I find most disgusting about her.

 

I don't think she is any worse than a von Braun and a Porsche. But

these are not people I have much use for either.

.

I for one will not be promoting Riefenstahl's immortality.

[michael_bender]

and my point is that if you have enough honesty to look in the mirror, and remember the history of your country - or if you have read newspapers since March this year - you cannot judge her. Too many of Americans - in the past and now - are guilty of THE SAME.

[jury]

admittedly, she had the eye. but sadly, she could not see.

[Karim Ghantous]

Beau: "Bender, the fact that there have been a number of noteworthy Jewish people in the film industry does not excuse your post, which is anti-Semitic... "

 

I see both of you have a point, but Beau, 'anti-semetic' is just a fancy term for 'Jew-hating'. You mentioned that term three times in your post. Can't bring yourself to say 'Jew-hater'? Or do you prefer to hide behind intellectual politeness?

[joshroot]

<I>"Hollywood ownership has been Jewish since practically its inception, as far as I know.</I>

<P>

Well I can't speak for the land itself, but go ahead and show me how many big Hollywood studios are owned by Jewish people. <P>MGM's majority shareholders are Kirk Kerkorian (through his Tracinda Corp) and Frank Manusco. Neither of which are Jewish (Kirk is Armenian). Sony Pictures is a part of a giant publicaly owned Japanese corporation. Disney is less than 2% insider owned. With the majority of stocks (63%) owned mutual funds and institutional investors (who themselves are in turn owned by millions of different people). Universal Studios is owned by Vivendi, a French company. This story repeats itself over and over. Sure, there are exceptions (Dreamworks SKG is one the anti semites like to throw around). Troma studios owner Lloyd Kaufman is another. But considering that he makes movies that are hardly ever seen by anyone other than extreme fans of the "smartly written cheesball horror" genre, I doubt that you can consider him a Hollywood mogul. In fact, most of Hollywood seems to hate him. But for the most part, the idea of a Jewish "owned" Hollywood is just that, a myth. <P>Hollywood is big business, and just like all big business, it is owned by shareholders.<P>Michael: for someone who is full of accusations, you seem to have lots of wrong information loaded in your gun.

[olivier_reichenbach]

Mr Bender, if your IQ is between 145 and 147, your orthography has some catch-up to do. It's

«vilification», not «villification», the «Nazis», not the «Nazies», «racist», not «rasist»,

«committee», not «commettee»...

 

As for this: «Hollywood ownership has been Jewish since practically its inception, as far as I

know.» Is that so? So what? It does not make Leni Riefenstahl any less a Nazi sympathizer.

 

You ARE becoming a master at judging on intent. You did it the other day to Grant Frost when

you accused him of «pinning the imagery» of the great photographers on their lenses, when he

was just asking what lenses were used by the greats. And now, even more far-fetched, you

accuse «Jewish Hollywood» of vilifying Riefenstahl because she was talented, not because

she was a Nazi sympathizer.

 

How can a simplistic reasoning like that be taken seriously?

[graphicjoe]

May we all live our lives as well as we expect others to live theirs. I am grateful that I have never had to face the decisions that were commonplace in WWII and many other times in the past.

 

cheers,

 

Joe

[michael_bender]

No, to prove something you'd have to see WHAT YEAR something happened to L.R., such as she could not raise funding (and it's impossible to prove something that did NOT happen, like invitation to shoot a film), and then compare it to some Goldwyn Mayer or Universal ownership/financing etc. in THAT year<br>

It's futile to do it here; read memoirs, or, easier, make searches in Google, and decide for yourself if you are right.<br>

My thesis that Eisenstein was not even charged with being a foul communist propagandist, and is only praised in movie industry histories - while L.R. is villified, in spite of the obvious fact that what they did is pretty much the same - and that this discrimination is based on their nationality - may be unpronouncable in this "free" society, but it happens to be true.<br>

Again, too bad that this is such a strong taboo in the USA