Switching from Mamiya 7II to Hasselblad 501CM. Can't make up my mind...

[paul_duvernois]

I recently bought the new Mamiya 7II with its 80/4 lens, but feel

quite disappointed by the results I got on my first rolls: b&w tones

are not as rich and creamy as I was expecting, and color enlargements

showed really poor blue (of course same film reala2 processed in same

lab, and for b&w the same delta 100 and same processing ).

 

I had once the opportunity to use for a week a hasselblad 501C +

80/2.8 CB and the results both in b&w and colour were splendid.

Eventhough Hasselblad is a bit heavier, has no built-in lightmeter, I

really think about getting rid of my Mamiya.

 

But I am not sure that would be wise and worth (I would loose some

money in the switch....)

 

Can someone who used both equipments help me to make up my mind?

[Robin Smith]

Paul

 

This must be a technique (exposures correct?) and or processing-printing issue. The M7 is a splendid camera and will do what you want. Persevere!

[rene_kassis]

Paul,

 

I am extremely surpised by the results you described. I have the M7 (identical to the M7II) with the same 80f4 lens, and usually get terrific results with color films (never tried in B&W, as i can't process 6x7 myself). The blue skies I get often make you think that a polarising filter has been used! I would advise that you don't draw any conclusion on your equipment after only few rolls. What was your point of comparison? Have you tried other films? I personally don't like the Reala films, as I find they lack contrast (personal taste, of course). The metering of the M7 is also very center-weighted, have you factored that in when composing your picture?

I also always use the lens hood in any circumstance.

 

Hope the above is of help

[dan_brown1]

There is something wrong here. The M7/80 is a better lens than the H'blad 80/2.8. You should get razor sharp results with that lens, and no noticeable affect on color. Creaminess, that comes from film, negative size and printing technique.

 

However, the bigger things to consider in helping you make up your mind are rangefinder v. SLR, 6x6 v. 6x7, size, bulk, handling, big systems v. limited system, etc., etc. Lens difference are way past the point of diminishing returns here, they are both outstanding! If you aren't happy with your results from an M7, getting a 'blad isn't the solution, look elswhere.

[evan_dong]

Before you switch your Mamiya to a Hasselblad, try shooting transparency film in both B & W and color first. I used the Mamiya and found that they are equal to the the results that you will get from Hasselblad. YOur poor results could have been from anything. Bad developing, "cooked" film (meaning temperature), poor printing. To settle your mind, rent a similar Hasselblad setup and shoot the films you normally shoot in both camera. Make sure its the same emulsion and from the same batch. Also use transparency film if normally don't use them for this test. Use the same film ASA ans lens aperature setup for both camera. Have it developed by a reputable lab that you trust. Then you can compare the quality. Just don't forget that Japanese optics tend toa little cooler than the Zeiss optics. Then you decide afterwards. You might wind up buying both system for different needs. A 6 X 7 "rangefinder" and a 6 X 6 SLR.

[david_henderson]

I've used a Hasselblad 501cm and the Mamiya 7II side by side. My own impressions are that you won't see an improvement in colour rendition or sharpness by making the switch. In fact I'm rather pleased with the performance of the Mamiya on colour transparencies, though there's a couple of things to add.

 

Firstly the Mamiya's meter is very heavily centre weighted. It could easily be encouraging you to overexpose the sky. I use a spot meter rather than the meter integral to the camera. At least that means I know where the values are coming from. Second , don't be fooled by the view through the viewfinder. I don't know quite what Mamiya have done with it but it looks polarised/ more saturated than reality. Third, I really would try transparency film before you write the camera off- just to eliminate a lab problem. I'm waiting for my first R-Types from the Mamiya and my expectations are high given what I've seen on the lightbox.

 

There's all sorts of reasons not to like this or any rangefinder. Can't frame accurately/ can't see the effect of filters/ got to take off my QR plate to change a film/ what's depth of field anyway, etc etc -but image quality shouldn't be one of them

 

.

[paul_duvernois]

Many thanks to you all for your persuasive remarks and recommandations.

I will test new films/processings before I take a final decision and eventually will avoid a fatal mistake.

[jeff_drew3]

Paul, make a couple small carry cards (1-6x6cm & 1-6x7cm) and for a few weeks frame a shot with each card. See if you like the square. Since you already have the M7II, work with it. The formats differ in seeing. Do try the positive film choices, and shoot a bunch. Both formats are fine systems.

[jim_chow]

I'd recommend ditching the neg film and shoot transparency film side-by-side before making any judgement. You might find the colors of the Japanese glass to be a tad more punchy/contrasty and less subtle (the comment the manager of my proshop in Japan made about Fujinon vs. Schneider), but the choice of transparency film can more than make up for this (RAP vs. RVP, etc.). If you decide to get the hassy, you might want to keep the M7II and get the higly-regarded 43mm superwide lens (dump the 80, it's probably the least sharp of all the M7 lenses) and use that for your wide angle, then get the best normal and tele lenses for the hassy (100/3.5, 180/4, 350/5.6) to keep you covered for portraits and tele shots. The M7II w/ 43mm is still less money than the 38mm biogon, and just as good...just no history or mystique.:-)

[andreas_carl]

I agree with all the above - there is no point in switching camera systems for YOUR reasons ("poor blues or lack of creaminess"). Your only consideration should be a) how does the camera handle, b) what accessories will you need in the future and c) do you like 6x6 or 6x7.

 

There also is little point in switching from negative film to positive film (change the lab if they can't get a decent print from 120 negatives!) or doing lots of testing (the Mamiya 80 may have a small edge over the Hassie lens, but in practice it doesn't matter).

[duane_babcock]

I've been there and done that when it comes to testing the two systems side by side and I found the Mamiya 80mm results to be slightly better than the Hassy 80mm. I did not use the built in meter but took incident readings and set both cameras to identical shutter/aperature settings. I tested Fuji Provia F (100 asa) transparency film as well as Kodak T-Max 100 (B&W). I had a lab develope the color while I did the B&W myself. Under a high mag. loupe, you will see the difference.

[peter_olsson]

Paul, I think you have a point about the creaminess of some

Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad. There is a very special look in

black & white from the two lenses I own, the 80 & 180. Of

course there is also a difference between film types (Tri-x,

Tmax, Neopan, XP2-super, Plus-x, TCN, TechPan are the

films I have used) and between the choosen paper (best

creaminess, to my liking, with Forte Polygrade warmtone).

When I compare results from my Rolleicord (which has been

CLA'd) and the planar 80 on Hasselblad the latter produces

much more pleasing results, a mixture of creaminess and

sharpness. I haven't used the suggested (by Jim) 100/3.5

but I cannot imagine to photograph without the marvellous

80 planar anyway. Perhaps the Mamiya will show more lines

per millimiter in a lab situation but image quality is so

much more than lpm and the planar 80 gives sufficient of

lpm anyway.

 

In colour there is also some magic coupling between Reala

and Zeiss-glass. It looks as if it was made to be an

excellent couple. On the other hand, Reala can do that with

almost any good lens brand :-)

I believe that you will probably see a difference if and when

you compare the 80 Mamiya with the 80 Zeiss. There are always

differences in lens character between different optical

formulas. Lenses are balanced differently. I think you should

do a comparison.

[kl_prager1]

Dear Paul,

 

I don't own the M7, but have rented it on several occassions. While I can understand why you may prefer the Hasselblad more than the M7, I don't think it makes sense to do it based on quality issues alone. I do own the Hasselblad 501CM. There's no question that the quality of the images it produses is astonishing. However, as many other posters have already stated, the quality of the M7 is easily comparable w/ the Hasselblad.

 

The issues you raised are really quite subjective. I recommend that you try the M7 w/ a broader range of films to see if you don't achieve some of the results you're looking for. Based on your comments, I'm not sosure that I'd be as inclined to test for "sharpeness", as much as I would be for the type of tonal range and color rendition you want. Therefore, if you don't normally use transparency film, perhaps you should focus on other print films, as I don't believe sharpeness is an issue, or even necessarily the concern you're trying to address.

 

One other point is that we (photographers) can be a tough lot to please when it comes to being satisfied w/ our equipment. It seems that the "grass is always greener" w/ some other camera we don't currently have. I'm definitely have this tendancy myself! You've got one of the best cameras in the world. I'd try to make the most of it before you jump ship. If there are "operational" issues you just can't live w/, that maybe another story. But, I beleive w/ a little experimenting you can solve the "quality" issues. Good luck!

 

KL Prager

[enzo_campagnolo]

Paul, I read with interest your posting of May11. I too recently purchased an M7II, and as you describe, have not been very happy with the results. I have spent the last 2 months trying differnt films, bracketing exposures, going to different labs, etc, etc.. but still have not been satisfied with the results. I just rented a Hasselblad 503CW with 80/2.8 CFE lens, and got back the first roll. I am delighted with the results! Goodbye M7, hellow Hasselblad. Maybe there really is something to the Zeiss Optics, I dont know... It certainly works for me...

[henrik_rundgren1]

Have you checked your rangefinders?

 

I own the M7II and the first roll looked god-awful due to the

rangefinder needing adjustment. If it's even the slightest bit off it

can be devastating for the reults.

 

I am very very pleased with the results after having my RF adjusted so

you might want to check it out.

[philip_tilton]

This is a late posting, but I hope it will help anyone who reads it. I own or have owned several medium format cameras. I currently have a Hasselblad (503cx), Mamiya 7II and Mamiya RZ67. At one time I owned a Pentax 67. I wasted a lot of money and time chasing after the "best" medium format optics and other equipment. As far as I'm concerned, there is no substantive difference in the image quality you can achieve with any of the aforementioned cameras and the lenses offered by their respective manufacturers. Mamiya, Hasselblad/Zeiss, Pentax, etc. all manufacture excellent products capable of producing superb photographic results. Of course, differences in features and other attributes associated with various medium format cameras may cause you to prefer one over another, but the high quality optics available with today's medium format cameras, coupled with the superior image quality offered by large negatives should give you the photographic results you seek regardless of which camera you choose. Don't make the mistake I did and jump from camera to camera because somebody somewhere suggests that so and so camera or lens is "better" than what you have today.

[mauro_.]

Dear Paul, I experimented the same feeling with my 7II and 65/4 lens; I shot dozens of rolls and the results were not as I expected; colour rendition on 65/4 (FUJI REALA) hadn't the 50/4 distagon vivid saturation; furthermore the upper line frames in the viewfinder disappeared when used in a usual daylight condition, so that it was impossible using the camera for outdoor photography. I read dozens of user reviews before buying this camera, and I noticed that someone compared the viewfinder with the Leica M6 one, judging it superior to Leica, but my personal experience is that The 7II finder is a piece of junk and that the user that said that hadn't never seen a Leica in his Life; at the end my opinion is that this camera is a big fail by Mamiya. It is not like an Hassy , it is not like a Leica, but is a terrible expensive piece of Junk. Also the Mamiya service confired that the finder wasn't so good as the Leica one (I had a long conversation with them).

 

Dick Ashley