digitmstr Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 I wonder why Canon did not offer at least a B&W option on the 10D. When I used to have a G2 I compared the images taken directly in B&W from the camera with those 'grayscaled' in PS and I prefer the ones done in the camera. Also, it would save a lot of time. Does anyone know of a way to take B&W directly on the 10D? I tried to lower the saturation but it's really not meant for that much control, only fine dajustments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgo Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 There is no current way to do this directly on the 10D. Perhaps in the future through a firmware upgrade ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Same gripe about the Olympus E-20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Learn how to use PhotoShop properly, then your PhotoShop coverted images will look better than those taken in camera. That way you get to decide what they should look like rather than letting the camera decide. B&W in camera isn't a professional tool. It's a tool for P&S users. The 10D isn't a P&S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgo Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 However ... If you upgrade your RAW conversion software to <a href="http://www.breezesys.com/">Breeze Systems' Breeze Browser</a>, you can convert to B&W while keeping your original as captured in full colour ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 A good B&W is not just a decolorized color image. To propose "do it later in Photoshop" indicates a complete lack of appreciation for the nuances of B&W photography. I shall stop here, before saying anything which I will regret later, about such an asinine.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david cunningham Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 I've been using a Nikon D1x for 8 months or so and keep thinking that I should be using the b&w mode since I print almost entirely in black & white. Everytime I try it on a shoot, I regret it. The truth is, I get much better results using RAW files and then converting in Photoshop using the channel mixer (NOT desaturate or greyscale). There are several actions for emulating different b&w films. Check out fredmiranda.com. While they are just approximations, they are very good starting points. With proper use and practice you can achieve the nuances of b&w film. It takes time and practice, but then again, it takes time and practice to develop your wet darkroom skills as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitmstr Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 I can see editing images for print in PS but, having to batch edit 140 pix...I would prefer the *option*. I know about PS, that was not my question. The question is and remain: why not give the option to the user. I didn't say anything bout P&S nor is it implied. Having an option does not imply a P&S point of view much less is the option itself a P&S item simply because the G2 has it. If the 10D was ONLY a professional tool it would NOT have the "little GREEN rectangle" on the dial, eh? By the same logic, that would have to be removed since a "professional" photographer would NEVER use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgo Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Just relax and get <a href="http://www.breezesys.com/">Breeze Systems' Breeze Browser</a> ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitmstr Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 I don't like Breeze. What I do instead is shoot RAW and convert to TIFF and work in Photoshop thereafter to get the BEST possible B&W image. However, there are times where I would love to be able to have B&W images right out of the camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 <em>A good B&W is not just a decolorized color image. To propose "do it later in Photoshop" indicates a complete lack of appreciation for the nuances of B&W photography</em> <p> And this statement indicates a complete lack of understanding of both digital imaging AND photoshop. <p> The world exists in color, so any B&W images map colors and intensities to shades of grey. How you do the mapping matters. You can map in any way you want with photoshop. If you don't know what you are doing, you do it badly. If you know what you are doing, you do it well. <p> While some arguments that B&W photography using B&W film and chemical processing can yield better results than digital color images and photoshop have some merit, any arguments that in camera digital B&W is better than a PhotoShopped color image are simply wrong and just show ignorance of the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 No. Ignorance is the state of mind of someone who thinks that he knows it all. And that there's no room for other's opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitmstr Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 Just to clearify my position: I have not said that in-camera B&W is "better" than PS, that would be ludicrous as PS offer an ocean of editing possibilities thru channels, selective colors, levels, etc... But, I did say that I prefered the in-camera B&W of the G2 as opposed to the grayscale version (unedited). I just wanted to make that clear. Obviously, there's no substitute for a well edited image in PS. Still, I was wondering whether it was a price-point issue, a technical issue or simply a demand issue that kept Canon from incorporating that feature on the 10D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsbhasin Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Hear. Hear. The clash of the titans. I see both sides. The pixels are RGB, so they only capture color and luminousity values. They dont capture BW. <p>On the other hand, i dont see why the camera software cannot remove the color information and just let the luminous values, to make a BW image. Why should you need to use PS to do that? It is just a software thing, why cant the embedded image processor do that in the 10D. If it can be done in Point and Shoots, then it is available. It would be nice to compare a static shot taken in color, converted to BW in PS using standard actions and (if possible) the same shot taken in BW. For the 10D however, this wont work. <p>Or is the 10D worth 50 Cents "If i can't do it, homie it can't be done...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimvanson Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 "<i>A good B&W is not just a decolorized color image. To propose "do it later in Photoshop" indicates a complete lack of appreciation for the nuances of B&W photography.</I>"<p>So Canon changes the software/firmware to allow the user to shoot B&W with all the characteristics of Kodak CN. Well you don't like CN...you like TriX so to get that TriX look you gotta decolorize the color image, the B&W one is no help...no one is gonna be happy all the time.<p>Get a good prog like the <a href="http://www.theimagingfactory.com/download/001CBWP/cbwp.htm"><b>Convert To B&W Pro </b></a> plugin for Photoshop. It'll allow you to make all kinds of changes to a color image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 The point is to shoot it as a B&W photograph AT THE TIME OF COMPOSITION, not to compose a color photograph now, and turn it into a B&W image later. I guess that Ansel Adams, and Edward Weston, and lots of others could look at the natural color image on the ground glass and visualize it perfectly in black and white. I can't do that. The technology is available right now to show what the image would look like in B&W, and I would find it immensly helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimvanson Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 What did St Ansel say about the concert and the score. I'd rather take a color shot and change it to B&W in post then have a B&W shot that can't be changed to color. I guess the only way for a B&W traditionalist to be happy is to shoot B&W film... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 No, I have no objections to recording it in color and converting later; I'd just like to be able to see it in B&W while I'm composing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_kieltyka Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 If I were Canon I'd throw in a b&w mode so the folks who equate post-processing with getting teeth pulled could have their b&w shots. That said there's more than one fast & easy way in Photoshop of converting color photos to b&w. My favorite is this: convert the photo to LAB mode; once converted click on the Lightness (luminance) image in the Channels window, then choose Grayscale from the Image>>Mode menu; click on "OK" to delete the A & B channels. Voila! You're done. Takes 20 seconds or so. You can easily whip up an action to automate this too. IMO using the Channel Mixer is the most effective and fun way of creating b&w photos from color originals. It takes time but for people who enjoy post-processing (me for instance) it's great. -Dave- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_ Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 You could try a sepia filter on the lens. Not the best B+W, but it would confuse the camera to no end...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitmstr Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Post-processing is (can be) sort of like painting: a creative process in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratz Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Bill said: No, I have no objections to recording it in color and converting later; I'd just like to be able to see it in B&W while I'm composing it. -- Bill Mitchell , August 30, 2003; 10:37 P.M. Eastern Do you own a 10D? You do know that you can't use the rear LCD monitor to compose the shot before you take it don't you. You could do test shots and look at them on the monitor to check composition in B&W if B&W was offered I suppose. The 10D is a DSLR which means that you could only see it in B&W after taking a shot not "while I'm composing it". If you meant while you were at that location using the rear viewer after you shoot to decide on further adjustments sorry, I just wanted to be clear on what you meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Actually I use an Olympus E-20, which has a true reflex viewfinder and LCD which works simultaneously. I'll probably buy a Minolta A-1 as soon as it's available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnlund Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I don't trust the camera's LCD too much -- I can't profile nor adjust it (except for brightness), and my outdoor viewing conditions are inconsistent. IMHO an three-channel RGB histogram would be a more useful feature. I'm not unsympathetic to this B&W view idea, but I can see a long list of view mode requests around the corner (faux-Velvia, sepia-toning, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmijo Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 A lot of opinions! Well, here's mine. I would never trust the camera to make the B&W conversion because there are a myriad of options. Since the camera has no way to actually capture in B&W, a conversion would be required. During the conversion, the camera would have to make a great deal of assumptions about how to mix the luminosity values of the three colors. Once the conversion was complete the original data would be lost. Undoubtedly, I could almost always achieve a better conversion later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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