Question about Canon F1-N (New) battery packs

[tom_johnston4]

My High Powered NiCd battery pack FN will no longer take full charges

and it's time to replace its "permanent" batteries. I have learned

that the batteries are still available from Canon even though they

said they aren't, and I am replacing them. However, I have decided

to pick up a battery pack FN as a backup and also so that I am no

longer dependent on a battery pack for which the batteries are very

difficult to replace (the procedure is quite involved and even

requires removing the textured leather-like grip material from the

battery pack which I don't want to do myself because I don't know how

I would get it back on without it looking like crap).

 

So that the question below makes sense, understand that there are

three battery packs available for the F1-N (New) which I refer to in

the question;

 

1) Battery Pack FN - this pack has a battery drawer in which you

put 12 regular AA batteries available from any store. This pack

winds the camera at the same high speed that the High Powered NiCd

Battery Pack (3 below) does.

 

2) NiCd Battery Pack FN - this pack uses 6 "permanent" NiCd

batteries. This pack is weaker than 1 or 3 and winds the camera at

a slower maximum rate. I am not interested in this pack not just

because it is weaker, but because it doesn't have the advantage of

user-replaceable batteries. It is recharged using the Canon NiCd

charger MA/FN.

 

3) High Powered NiCd Battery Pack FN - this pack uses 12 "permanent"

AA batteries and drives the film at the same fast maximum speed as

the Battery Pack FN (1). This is the pack that I have and, like the

NiCd Battery Pack FN, it is recharged using the NiCd Charger MA/FN.

 

So, I have decided to pick up a Battery Pack FN that uses regular,

user-replaceable batteries as a backup. But Canon warns the user to

never use NiCds in the Battery Pack FN. Does anyone know why that is

the case? I have always freely substituted NiCd AA cells for

regular batteries in all my equipment with no problems. I cannot

imagine that doing so would damage the camera itself because the NiCd

Pack FN (six NiCd cells) or the High Powered NiCd pack FN (12 NiCd

cells) have the same voltage per cell (1.2) as any NiCd battery. I

have verified with a Canon technician that the "permanent" batteries

in both the NiCd pack FN and the High Powered NiCd pack FN are

basically just regular NiCd batteries except that they have solder

terminals on them.

 

Since the voltage for each cell is the same, why would Canon warn the

user NOT to use NiCds in the Battery Pack FN (the battery pack with

user replaceable batteries)?

 

Lastly, if I ignored Canon's warning and did use standard NiCds in

the battery pack FN, would the canon NiCd battery charger FN work

with it? (The charger hooks up to the terminals connecting the

battery pack to the motordrive.)

 

I am a hopeless tinkerer and when someone tells me that you cannot do

this or you must only do that, I have a stubborn habit of questioning

them if my own reasoning tells me otherwise. In almost all cases,

it turns out that their warnings were invalid. However, I am not an

electrical expert and I thought I would ask about this before I give

it a try and possibly ruin something.

 

Thanks in advance.

[douglas_green1]

I'd recommend standard NiMH batteries in the Battery Pack FN, and any generic NiMH battery charger. They last longer than NiCads.

[tom_johnston4]

Thanks Douglas and I certainly would use NiMH batteries if possible rather than NiCds (with their memories), but that really wasn't the question. What I am asking is IF you can use NiCds (or NiMH) batteries in the Battery Pack FN. As I mentioned above, Canon very specifically warns the user NOT to use NiCds in this pack and to ONLY use regular alkaline batteries. That doesn't make any sense to me but Canon goes out of their way to make that warning.

 

Have you used HiMH or NiCd batteries in a Canon Battery Pack FN?

[douglas_green1]

No, but I've used NiMH batteries in a Motor drive MA where Canon makes the same warning. With no problem at all.

[gregory_nicholson]

You can certainly use NiCads in an AA battery motor drive and for all intents and purpose they will work. This is where Canon has a problem though. The voltage numbers are not the issue, it's the amperage. The NiCad pack FN used N size NiCads, approximately 130-250mAh each, they were soldered together in the NiCad pack and recharged as one unit.

 

The [separate battery] type of chargers may charge several batteries at one time but might be charging them individually, I don't know. I personally wouldn't try them, or that idea. The unit itself may not put up with the charging amperage, who knows.

 

N cells range from 150mAh to 230mAh in NiCad and NiMH cells range from 1250mAh to 1500mAh. NiCad and NiMH batteries have a higher rate of transfer over AA batteries. The resulting voltage discharge is high enough to damage the motor with heat, should the amperage pass through the windings without moving the motor. Let's say you put in a roll of 24 and the film counter on the back is set at 36 frames. Rather than electrically cut out like it's supposed to, on frame 24, it will still try to wind. With the AA batteries it just stalls the motor, with the NiMH it may over heat. Use them at your own risk and make damn sure you always set the rear dial for the frame numbers of the film. Believe me I've gotten this wrong several times, going either way.

 

You can buy N size NiCads at Radio Shack and solder them in yourself, you said you like to tinker. Very very carefully and patiently peel off the leatherette. I used an exacto knife, razor blade and lacquer thinner. Do not use acid core solder. Use PLIOBOND brand product to reattach and nothing will look like crap. HTH

[tom_johnston4]

Greg,

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my question about batteries for

the F1 camera. It sounds like I finally found someone who knows what they

are talking about. But I am a little confused. Could you clarify a

bit...

 

The High Powered NiCd pack that I have always used has 12 NiCds as opposed

to 6 NiCds in the NiCd Pack FN. (Thanks for letting me know that they are N

sized. I never heard of that size before). You seem to be saying that

NiCds could overload the drive but the NiCd packs have NiCds in them.

That's where I get confused.

 

As for charging... What I was asking was whether the Canon Charger FN could

be used to charge regular NiCds that I put in a Battery Pack FN (the

battery pack with the battery drawer). It would seem to me that the

circuit would be the same as it is in the Canon NiCd packs. Of course,

there would be no problem with taking the AA NiCds out of the drawer and

charging them with any standard NiCd charger - but I was wondering whether I

could leave them in the drawer and charge them with the Canon battery

charger.

 

Thanks for the info on changing the N-sized batteries in my NiCd pack. I

found a website with the process described. However, it was not too

complete and it didn't say anything about how to get the leatherette off.

Also, it didn't say anything about the original batteries being N types.

The person who wrote that description as well as a Canon technician that I

talked to replaced the batteries with regular AA sized NiCds except that

they had solder terminals on them. One of them offered the tip that each

set of 2 batteries that are soldered together should be put in a heat-shrink

tube after being soldered together.

 

 

 

Anyway, just so I don't burn something out, could you clarify the following:

 

1) Since the Canon NiCd battery packs use NiCds without a problem, how

can regular AA NiCds put in the Battery Pack FN (with the drawer) overload

the drive?

 

2) Would NiMH batteries cause any problems if I used them in the battery

drawer of the Battery Pack FN?

 

3) Could the Canon Battery Charger FN be used with the Battery Pack FN if I

put regular AA NiCds in it? Isn't the circuit the same as that of the High

Powered NiCd pack that I use now? The terminals are the same.

 

4) Do you know why Canon warns the user not to use NiCds in the Battery

Pack FN. Again, since the High-Powered NiCd Pack (12) and the NiCd Pack

FN use NiCds anyway, why would Canon warn about using NiCds in the Battery

Pack FN (with drawer)? It would seem that, if anything, Canon should be

telling you to use AA NiCds rather than alkaline batteries since they are

similar to the NiCds in their NiCd packs.

 

Also, as far as I know, the motordrive isn't really an AA motordrive since Canon's NiCd packs us NiCd batteries. Again, that is what really throws me about this. Canon's own NiCd packs use NiCds (obviously) but they warn you NOT to use NiCds in the Battery Pack FN (????). Wouldn't NiCds put in the battery drawer of the Battery Pack FN look just like NiCds in the Canon NiCd packs to the motordrive?

 

 

Again, thanks so much for your answer. Being a dummy about stuff like

this, I was just confused because it seemed like you were saying that I

could use NiCds in the Battery Pack FN but then you seemed to warn that they

could damage the drive. If you could clarify, I would greatly appreciate

it.

 

Thanks Again,

Tom Johnston

[gregory_nicholson]

Tom, "It sounds like I finally found someone who knows what they are talking about" No, that's not true, I'm trying to work this out as you are. I still have unanswered questions too. I certainly don't have the knowledge of your Canon Technician, I would use his advise over anything I say.

 

"You seem to be saying that NiCds could overload the drive but the NiCd packs have NiCds in them. That's where I get confused" I can only assume that the NiCad pack may have a circuit that directs the current back into the NiCds in an overload situation, like the thyristor circuitry of your flash? I'm only guessing, There must be a difference I just don't know what it is. Canon is very emphatic about not using the AA rechargeable NiCads in a battery pack FN or MA.

 

"Canon Charger FN could be used to charge regular NiCds that I put in a Battery Pack FN" The individual NiCads chargers must charge them one at a time, that way you can charge one, two or four and not worry about overloading when charging only one, again all differences must be considered. The cost for either battery replacement is going to be close to the same, why not just use what is recommended.

 

"I was just confused because it seemed like you were saying that I could use NiCds in the Battery Pack FN but then you seemed to warn that they could damage the drive." The drive gears should be fine it's the motor that may get damaged when you encounter a situation where the motor can't wind forward (at the end of the film) but it is getting power to do so. I don't see where the extra power of the NiMH batteries would rip the film out and throw it on the ground but rather overheat the motor causing it to short or burn, if my math is right they can put out close to 18 amps short term discharge, that's enough to fully power a pair of headlights. AA batteries would be close to 7.2 amps.

 

"it didn't say anything about how to get the leatherette off" The leatherette is not leather but plastic and much stronger than needs to be. You're not going to tear it unless you get impatient. Plus it doesn't stretch out of shape either, if it does get slightly out of shape you can correct this on reinstallation. Be patient though, it took me over an hour to get all the leatherette off my speedfinder, so take your time and everything will be fine. You can use a heat gun too, but be cautious and only lightly direct it on the glue. You're probably going to get some scratches on the battery pack but they will be hidden once you put the vinyl back on. Consider using plastic tools.

 

I would do exactly what Canon states in their manual. Use AA batteries for the battery pack FN. Use NiCADs for the rechargeable pack, if the high power pack FN takes a different NiCad then find out what that is and replace them with the proper cells. Camera equipment is expensive and somewhat complicated. The Motor Drive FN does more than just wind and rewind film, remember the Shutter Priority circuitry is found in the drive too. It's too risky to mix and match and try to use something that was not designed as a unit. Canon paid highly educated Engineers to design and test all these products, anything they recommend it likely to be the best idea. BTW there is a Canon FD forum on this site, you should visit it sometime.

[william_baird]

I have good news for all of you looking for a fix to the nicd problem using the battery Pack fn...The battery Pack fn can be modified to use NIMI batteries, and can use the same charger for the NICD pack fn and hipower NICD pack MA/fn

I have been using this for quite some time, and with excellant results....There is only a slight mod to the battery pack and you can use NIMHD,or AA batteries, but dont try to charge the AA's

The screw socket that attaches the charger needs to be cut down so it will accomodate the charger....Last lift the plate off of the Of the attchment and connect the + lead to mate to the charger pin...Thats it, and its cheep, and last, the charger even shuts off when the charging is complete....It even lasts longer the the NICD pack fn and and can be recharged at any time wiht no memory effect....I am in the process of making a step by step instruction on this and will be glad to share with anyone who wishes to use the new pack... Just email me at wbaird2149@mdhsi.com

[william_baird]

I posted wrong email in my article on the battery pack fn..should be wbaird2149@mchsi.com

[william_baird]

About the Nicd pack fn or hipower pack fn...If you seem to have poor charging or holding a charge, you can take these to batteries Plus and they can rebuild your pack...The leatherette is not at all hard to peel back, and when you get the new pack rebuilt just use elemers glue on it after cleaning the surfaces with rubbing alcohol....Has worked in every case for me as well....Hope these articles help!!

William Baird

[tom_johnston4]

William:

 

That's a big help. Since posting the original question a while back, I found another battery pack - I forget the model, but it's the one where you can just insert AA or NiCD - it has the battery drawer that slides out. But I would like to get my high-power NiCd pack working again and I really appreciate your information. I will be sending you an email asking for your instructions later.

 

Thanks again.

 

Tom