Composition on the ground glass

[michael grace]

I seem to be having difficulty composing the image on the ground

glass. I view the image about ten inches away and its like I

don't "see" the picture. Is this a matter of practice or experience

or approach? Can you describe your technique or approach to

composition as you moved from beginner to sucess. I have a frame

viewer which helps to a certain degree but would like to benefit

from the years of experience that many of the LF photographers at

this forum have. Thank you. Michael

[john_cook1]

Not sure, but you could be too close. I find that the back of the lens, the portion of the groundglass I am studying, and my eye must all be in a straight line. This means a lot of walking around under the cloth when composing on an 8x10.

 

I have a personal problem with 35mm viewfinders, which cause me to act as if I am working with a gun-sight. Everything important ends to get placed dead-center, in the cross-hairs.

[paul_owen]

Michael, I know what you mean! Try viewing from a greater distance - and view the whole scene/screen. Then as you adjust to the image you can move closer/around under the darkcloth. IMHO ten inches is CLOSE - I would try viewing at double this distance befor homing in for fine focus.

[__jon__]

Michael,

 

I view the composition from about 18"--try farther back. And, if you are just learning how to do it, give it some time. It is a little disorienting at first. After a while you won't even think about it anymore.

[donald_miller1]

The other thing that may be occurring is that you are trying to bring an image that is inverted to a recognizable orientation (within your consciousness). One of the greatest benefits of a view camera, in my opinion, is that it takes the image into the realm of shapes, forms and lines. For that reason, one benefits from getting the rational mind out of the way. When that occurs one can begin to "see" what is actually there.

[leonard_evens]

I don't know if I'm any better than you are, and perhaps I shouldn't contradict others who may be better photographers. But my advice would be the opposite of what others have suggested.

 

You have to think in terms of what your final image (print) will be and how you are going to view it. Then you should place your eye relatively in the same position as you would in viewing that print. For example, most people would view an 8 x 10 print from about 12-13 inches. So if you are composing on an 8 x 10 gg, that is roughly the distance you should be from the gg. If you are composing on a 4 x 5 gg, then by the same token you should be about 6-7 inches from the gg.

 

Few of us can see clearly that close without aids. I had special reading glasses made (+5 diopters) which allow me to get about 7 inches from the gg of my 4 x 5 screen. I find that works quite well for me. I am seldom surprised by the results, at least as far as point of view and perspective are concerned, though of course I sometimes have problems with other aspects of evaluating the image.

 

In a related matter, it should be noted that focusing even at 10 inches is likely to result in focusing errors. Even at 7 inches, I find that I can err as much at 1.5 mm in the position of the standard on the rail. One really needs to use a loupe to focus critically. However, if you use the focus spread method and are careful about how you do it, you can generally focus accurately. In the focus spread method, you first focus on the furthest point you want in focus, then on the nearest point you want in focus and then set the standard halfway in between.

[skygzr]

Hi Michael �

 

I�ve always had a heck of a problem viewing the ground glass (gg) under a focusing cloth. Two things made life easier for me.

 

First, I use a fresnel. It�s basically flat lens that goes between you and the gg. Its job is to redirect the light so that it doesn�t spread out. It more or less makes the whole gg light up at once, eliminating the �hot spot� effect. On the down side, the gg goes dark when viewed from the side.

 

The other is a rotating 90-degree reflex viewer to replace the dark cloth. It also comes in a straight through (non-inverting) variety. They�re not made for all cameras, but I suppose you could have one adapted.

 

Nor everyone loves these devices, and some photographers will tell you that they�re a waste of time. I recommend you beg or borrow them before spending any money.

 

I have fairly good vision for a 40-something guy, but I always seemed to go blind under the dark cloth. I tried magnifying glasses, loupes and everything I could think of. I�m pretty content with this combination.

[henry_a]

Measure how far away you would hold a 4X5 print to view it. Or about how far you'd hold a book to read. That seems about right for me to compose on a 4X5. (for me its about 16-18 inches) Obviously you'll get on the ground glass with your loupe to check focus critically.

[Ed_Ingold]

How do you "see" the composition with a 35mm camera? Do you take time to look at the edges, and to judge the balance of elements in the entire frame?

 

In LF, the image is inverted, and dark at the edges unless you have a Fresnel lens. To many, the inverted image helps you regard the composition in a more analytical fashion - as stated above, you can visualize the ground glass in the same way as a 2-dimensional print.

 

You might consider a reflex viewer, or a binocular hood. Something like that is on my short list. I find it difficult to concentrate on the image when I'm struggling with a dark cloth (like in any breeze more than a puff.) That puts the focal plane of the image out to a more comfortable viewing distance (18"-24"), especially if you have trouble focusing at 10" like me.

[peter_galea]

Shoot....I start at arms length, then move in. I also use "Dean Edel's" and then a loupe. I struggled with the GG when I had a small dark cloth. I am very comfortable with it now that I have a HUGE Patterson cloth.

[igor_johanson]

Just keep your eys open!

[ken_lee11]

<p>Some images are discovered on the goundlgass, but another helpful approach is to compose the shot before you even set up the camera. Use a card cut in the approprate aspect ratio, or make a rectangle with your hands. If you are shooting b&w, then a viewing filter, such as the Zone VI, made by Calumet, is terrific.

 

<p>Recently, the viewing filter allowed me to quickly choose from among many options. I chose <a href="http://www.kenleegallery.com/NewYears2.htm"><i>this one</i></a>, and immediatly knew which lens I'd need. The creative process was hastened, rather than hindered.

 

<p>The advantage of this method is that you are free to discover exactly where to place the camera, and which lens to use - without lugging anything around. Camera placement was very important for the shot I have mentioned, and it was much easier to find it without having the camera around to slow me down.

 

<p>Not having the camera, you often feel less obliged to "follow through" and waste a shot on something that, upon closer inspection, is not what you expected. Once you have the shot in mind, you can mark the spot, and then go fetch the equipment.

 

<p>It may seem like merely a beginner's technique, but in fact, it helps you maintain that elusive "beginner's mind".

[scott_fleming1]

3x reading glasses from Walmart do it for me. I view the gg from about ten inches. After focusing and tilting with a loupe.

[upscan]

Michael: With 20:20 vision you would see the GG sharp at 20 cm. At that distance your field of view is much larger than the GG (assuming it is 4X5), in other words the image in the GG is too small for you to see it in good detail and not the best for composing. Ideally you could bring your eyes so that your field of vision only covers the full GG but at that distance you would be too close to focus your eyes on the image. This is where special glasses come in. If you do not require prescription lenses then Drug Store 3 or 4 Diopter glasses will do it for you. If you need prespription glasses then your optometrist will give you the proper prescription. I have done that and the results are fantastic! I see the whole 4X5" GG at about 5-6" for composing with exquisite sharpness. HOWEVER, for sharp-focusing you still need a loupe. If your GG is fine textured (Linhof) a 10X loupe will give excellent results. Other viewing accessories are a pain except perhaps in a studio and not at all practical in the field.

[leonard_evens]

Julio,

 

Whether you can focus at 20 cm depends on a variety of factors. Younger people can accomodate, but people over 40 or so begin to lose that ability. By the time you reach my age---almost 70---you have lost this ability entirely and you can focus only at one distance. If you have normal 20/20 distance vision, then you focus essentially only at infinity. If you are myopic, then you can focus closer, depending on the degree of myopia. I've had cataracts removed and interocular lenses implanted which give me essentially normal distance vision and no near vision at all. Normal reading glasses are usually set to allow focusing at about 14 inches. Even drug store glasses as strong as +3.25 won't allow me to focus at anything like 20 cm. But as I noted above, I had special +5 diopter glasses made, and those let me get about 7 inches from the gg.

 

I don't want to belabor this point, but what works for a 20 year old is not going to work for a 60 year old. Similarly, what works for someone with myopia won't work for someone with normal distance vision.

[sjmurray]

Michael, I have a slightly different resonse to your question. If you take a book of prints by Ansel Adams or Edward Weston, or any other LF photographer you like, and look at each image upside down, you will see that all are composed very nicely upside down as well as right side up. I doesn't seem to matter which way the image is viewed.

 

So, first, select the area that you want to be in your image. Then compose (upside down) on the GG. In my experience, if it looks good upside down, it will look good right side up.

 

The main issue is having a feel for composition. If you have no clear idea what the composition is that you want, you will have a problem regardless if the image is upside down or right side up. Try looking through a 4x5 inch cut-out in a piece of cardboard to see if the general composition you are afer is there in the scene. Once you establish there is a good composition, set up your camera at the proper distance, and with correct lens, that captures what you visualized. Practice will make it easier to translate this into what you are seeing in the GG.

 

Good luck and have fun.

[ken_schroeder]

Michael, practice will help. Target shooters use a technique called "dry shooting". Violinists do "longbow" exercises for tone. I suggest setting up your camera on a bright scene and just practicing viewing/ focusing. Also, moving your head around to check the corners helps. (The hot spot on the groundglass moves when you move.) Try different distances until you are comfortable. Keep with it; you will soon become comfortable. IMHO- forget about the reflex viewers, etc; just use a good and large enough focusing cloth.

[george losse]

Michael,

 

Try setting up in a room at night. Light the area in front of the camera but try to keep the light falling behind the camera to a minium. You should be able to compose on the glass without the darkcloth overhead. Try this and then get used to the camera. Then go under the cloth and get used to that feeling also.

 

I don't know if anybody else pointed it out but make sure both lens caps are removed, the shutter is open and the f-stop is wide open on the lens during focusing.

 

George Losse

[richard_deimel1]

I don't know that there is actually any cut and dried answer. I tried some of the suggestions you have received (none of which are new), but all of a sudden one day there it was, I realized I was having no difficulty composing on the ground glass. The view was natural. It's just a matter of time and experience. Keep at it; it will happen.

[michael_chini]

I suggest (as have others) that you compose by seeing where the edges of your frame end and then looking at the subject itself. This works perfectly for me and forces me to think about the subject and the photo rather than the camera, lens focal length etc.

 

I don't necessarily think that a well-composed inverted image will work. I've taken too many images which worked well as a negative or inverted in my TLR etc. They always disappoint me when I print them.

Remember people (American/European etc.) tend to 'read' photos left to right. Study composition, balance and perspective (if you're willing). As far as 'seeing' the picture on the groundglass, I wish I could as well!

 

MC