"Decisive Moment' & LF.

[richard_boulware]

After reading a post comment, on this board, that the

classic 'Decisive moment' kind of photographic cannot be made in LF,

I knew that I immediately disagreed, but I needed more that just my

own professional experience to make my case. I went to my library,

and pulled out two volumes. First..."MOMENTS, The Pulitzer Prize

Photographs:....and second, the works of W.Eugene Smith.

 

Fact. From 1942 thru 1953, EVERY pulitzer prize photograph was made

with a 4X5 Speed Graphic 4X5....including AP photographer Joe

Rosenthal's shot of the flag raising on Iwo Jima. Yes times have

changed and equipment too. These ARE decisive moment images!

 

Some of the classic images of WWII in the Pacific, made by W. Eugene

Smith, were made with a Speed Graphic, until he started using his

Rollei and eventually 35mm. Although some of the tech info says speed

graphic, the camera was actually the Combat model Speed Graphic. Same

camera, but in olive green with many chome pieces blacked out, to

avoid reflections and thus reduce to chance a sniper to single you

out.

 

My points in all this are twofold. First,...great pictures are made

by using what's between your left ear, and right ear....not the

camera you are holding.

 

Second. If you can, with your equipment...LOOSE your tripod

occasionally. The Pulitzer winners and Smith didn't use one for the

great majority of their shots.

 

You can call types of shots....landscape...or street photography.

Names don't really matter. The old political phrase, "IT's the

economy, stupid"....are apt here. "IT'S THE PICTURE, STUPID"...the

finished product!

 

The great difference between the works and photographers I have

mentioned are really pretty simple. Most LF landscape photography is

pretty boring. Not so the Pulitzer and Smith products, and others I

am sure. They had a point of view, and a visual statement to

make..AND THEY DID.

 

Pick up your 4X5 and make a statement...and give us your point of

view. Enough of the flowery commentary trying to justify in words,

something that is lacking in the print image. We...Ahhh,...you see I

jusssst had this feelinggg. Nonsense.

[Troll]

The Rosenthal flag raising was 100% POSED. That hardly qualifies for decisive moment status. Incidentally, there is a wonderful book, ("Flag of Our Fathers"), about the guys in the picture, most of whom were killed in action within a few weeks.

[richard_boulware]

POSING? Not hardly. Somewhere I have an audio recording of Rosenthat telling how and why he made that shot. Yes, it was the second time the flag went up on Iwo Jima. He was late in getting to the scent, and asked that it be re-planted. Did he choose the Marines? NO! Did he tell them how many and where to stand?...NO? Was it the second raising of the flat? Yes! Was it POSED? Absolutely NOT! Is it one of the most inspirational shots of WWII? YOU BET!...and is one of the most widely published photographs of the twentieth century...including postage stamps.

[Troll]

Maybe a "Directed Reenactment" would be a better description than Posed. There is also 16mm film of it taken by a corpsman with a B&H Elmo. I certainly agree that it's a great photograph, but definitely NOT "Decisive Moment".

[john_kasaian1]

Richard, I agree with you completely! "Its whats between your left ear and your right ear.." So true! Its too easy to get caught up in the gear and forget what the gear is for---taking photographs! An entire generation of Pulitzers were taken with Speed Graphics! What an inspiration!

[don_wallace1]

Richard, I get your point but for most of us, I think, LF is more than just the dimensions of the sheet of film. It is mainly the ability to use camera movements. Press photography used large negatives and you are quite right about the Pulitzer Prize news photographs (I have of book of all of them up to about the 80s). I also have used a Crown Graphic exactly as you suggest. I made me realize just how good those old newsies were. It is not as easy as it looks. Nonetheless, I would say that large format photographers today are interested primarily in other approaches to our subjects. We use large format for other reasons: camera movements, the ability to develop each negative differently, contact printing on special papers, Victorian processes, i.e, all sorts of things that do not involve "capturing the moment."

 

Don Wallace

[ralph_barker]

If memory serves, the news photographer who captured the burning of the Hindenburg got off three or four 4x5 shots with his Graphic in the 9 seconds or so it took the thing to burn. That probably qualifies as "decisive moment" photography.

 

Of course, the modern news photographer would hand his/her editor a CompactFlash card with 30+ digital images of a similar event. But, the point remains valid that "decisive moment" photography is possible with the appropriate LF gear.

[alec1]

Richard, you are totally wrong in saying: "He was late in getting to the scent [sic], and asked that it be re-planted."

 

The FACTS are a small flag was planted first. Joe wasn't there. Someone in the fleet below said to plant a larger flag so it could be seen. Joe went up with that group. He and the movie photographer were getting set-up nearby when the SECOND, larger flag was raised. Joe's last second shot was of that SECOND flag's raising.

 

Joe did take posed shots, AFTER the event. There's a great book on this written by the son of the Navy Corpsman who was one of the "lifters".

 

Just wanted to set the facts straight. BTW, the film was film pack, Joe never saw the print before it was published [giving rise to another myth], and that camera is in the Eastman Collection in Rochester. Some more LF trivia.

[dave_schneider]

This discussion reminds me of all the other silly ones I've seen on the web. How fast can you rewind/reload a roll of film, how fast can you burn through a roll on an F3 without motor drive, what's the slowest shutter speed you can handhold at, you know the ones. There are clearly many different types of photography. The photojournalist is looking to capture the instant in time that will have the maximum impact on the viewer. That was certainly not the intent when Weston photographed his green peppers. That doesn't mean that one is better than the other, just different.

[robert_cardon]

Mother of pearl! Posed or otherwise, it is recognized as a great shot, why not just leave it at that?

 

Why are large format photogrpahers such soreheads?

 

RJ

[tim_atherton2]

"Maybe a "Directed Reenactment" would be a better description than Posed." I certainly agree

that it's a great photograph, but definitely NOT "Decisive Moment"."

 

Actually, not that - it was the raising of a second, larger, flag and osenthal had nothing to do with that decision (cosnensus is, as fighting was still continuing, a larger flag was needed, for morale, so it could be seen more easily - or possible to demoralise the Japanese).

 

As for decisive moment - actually, in many ways it is - especially if you read how it was taken.

 

In addition to which, "decisive moment" is an innacurate and somewhat misleading translation of Cartier Bresson's original term...

[ed_skibeki]

"Why are large format photogrpahers such soreheads?"

 

You spend all your spare time under hot dark cloths, isolated from society, looking at everything upside down. (Not a chick magnet kinda thing to do.) Then you go into darkrooms, tray develop in total darkness. Then you make pictures no larger than your negative (real purists, that is). Then you develop the prints in known toxins. Then you proudly show them to family & friends who politely say things like "but there's no one in this photo..." You dwell on tonality & luminosity & dynamic range & talk about gamma & zones.

 

It's you bear up at all!

 

Oh... and that internet thing everyone does...... ;)

[j._mose]

Richard,

 

One of the smartest moments in my life was buying a used Crown Graphic in 1972 (at the age of 14) for my first "real camera". I saved every penny I had for 6 months and went into Olden Camera in NYC and bought my dream! I remember the salesmen so well. He was an Australian guy name Tom G-------- (It sounded like Gahoonee). I wish I knew him today (Bob Salomom: Do you know who I am talking about?) as he was so patient and helpful. Every other kid on the block, who had an interest in photography, bought a 35mm with as much automation as possible. I had to do everything from scratch with that camera, including the loading and developing of film. I became the youngest photographer for my town newspaper in all of it's history and had about 30 cover photos between 1972 and 1975 (when I left for college). I did end up getting a Nikon F2 with three lenses (I had a very nice father!) a year after the Crown Graphic. Yet the majority of newspaper photos, including sports events were shot with the 4 X 5! It just became a way of life to me and the quality of my photos reflected it. I think I received more grief from the professional photographers than my peers. They considered the press camera obsolete and suggested I save for a Hasselblad. In 1982, I did just that. Even with all the film improvements and better optics, my photos today do not match my 4 X 5 shots in richness and overall quality.

 

Richard...your posting has given me a boost to take some hand held shots this weekend. But I think I'll leave the Technika in the closet and pull out my faithful Graphic. Happy shooting!

 

Yours truly,

 

JP

[todd_caudle]

What would someone named Bill(y) Mitchell know about WWII anyways? (hehe)

[dan_smith]

If you look at a lot of the older fight & sports photography, it was done with hand held 4x5 cameras. Nothing wrong with those images. Many have more 'punch' than a lot of current work. The on camera bulb flash & older films coupled with photogs who understood the action & didn't 'machine gun & pray' for a good image made for excellent work.

[david richhart]

The famous photograph of Jack Ruby shooting Oswald was also taken with 4x5 graphic... <p>

Sorry, but I do not know which members of the conspiracy were responsible for the posing in the photograph ;o}

[todd_caudle]

Actually, the photo of Ruby shooting Oswald was NOT a 4x5. Bob Jackson, who took the infamous shot, works for the Colo. Springs Gazette, as did I for 10 years from '84-'94. He used a Leica, I believe. (I know it was a 35mm rangefinder of some sort, because I once held it in my hand.) A decisive moment nonetheless!

[Troll]

Rangefinder Nikon. An SP, if I remember correctly.

[richard_rau]

Ok Sports fans...back to the original posting......

 

"great pictures are made by using what's between your left ear,

and right ear....not the camera you are holding."

 

so ...would you consider Ansel's "Moonrise Over Hernandez,

N.M." a decisive moment? I would! And there are countless

other images by a lot of LF photographers, many I am sure, who

visit this forum regularly, that would fall into the same catagory.

It's not what equipment you use that determines a great

photograph, it's what's between your ears! And those of us that

use LF cameras on tripods aren't necessarily limited by that.

And I personally don't think most LF landscape photography is

boring. IMHO

[ilkka]

Another way to make a picture at the 'decisive moment' is to wait for something to happen. A car or a person to get into the right place in a pre-composed landscape for example. To me, that is just as decisive as anything else.

[sandy_sorlien]

Ikka has beaten me to my point but I'll expand on it. I photograph with a monorail on a tripod on city streets. I am shooting pictures of architecture and I do not want any people in them. (I think we architectural/landscape photographers should ask everyone who does portraiture, "Hey, why aren't there any buildings/mountains in that picture?") ABSOLUTELY there is a decisive moment. In my color pictures I must decide what color I want the traffic light to be, and wait for the exact moment when it turns that color AND there are no cars or people in the frame AND the wind settles down a bit so the trees aren't too blurry AND no birds are flying through the scene, destined to be unsightly blobs at 1/15 second. Let's not even start on "when the light is right." Anyone who says architectural photography is easy because the subject doesn't move has never gone out and done it, waiting for that decisive moment.

 

Cheers,

Sandy

[roger krueger]

My understanding was that "Ruby shoots Oswald" was a Mamiya Press--This from a TV program a couple of years ago about a number of Pulitzer winners. It also had an amusing/heartbreaking tale of how Jackson had seen Oswald stick the gun out of the window, but had an empty camera as a courier had just picked up all his film of the parade to meet his paper's deadline.

 

The important fact, Press or Graphic or even Leica, was that this was obviously shot with a camera with very, very little shutter lag. Most modern cameras would have captured something somewhat later, given both autofocus time and time after that for the mirror to rise. Oswald was crumpling fast; later might have meant no facial expression as his head turned down.

 

Part of "decisive moment" is, once you've recognized the moment, getting it recorded before it goes away. Sometimes a prefocused clunky old graphic does that better than a modern vunderkam.