Fashion Layout

[h._p.]

The point here is that John has failed in what he claims to be trying to do and then tries to cover his tracks by claiming that only he knows what's right and that anyone who disagrees with his viewpoint simply doesn't understand "either sales or marketing".

 

I'm afraid that at this point rude words come to mind but I'm far too much of a gentleman to use them here. The fact is that I know a fair amount about sales and marketing and I've organised plenty of product placement shoots. I also know soft porn when I see it. Calling this a 'fashion layout' is simply nonsensical.

[leanne_newton]

Allow me to explain this : the product is a couch cover, the product name is 'Silhouette', the added incentive to buy a month's free subscription to an upscale healthclub with each purchase-- the copy reads " Get yourself and yr couch in shape"

The campaign was launched in the spring and ran for 2 very successful years, published in every national magazine, and on the client's site too, posters.... etc

[h._p.]

Yep, that looks like marketing material to me. Nice shots, Leanne

[fotografz]

This post has gotten a bit heated and personal, so I was

reluctant to contribute an opinion. However, I think John is

getting short changed here.

 

I get what he is doing and thought to share that perspective from

my point of view as a working Creative Director in advertising. As

way of establishing some credentials to do so, my career has

included marketing everything from considered goods like high

end automobiles, accessories for $150,000 sports cars to

clothes, to eye surgery, to soap, to promoting Grand Prixs...you

name it (30 years doing this). I was ECD, elected North

American CD of the then largest ad agency in the world. I've

worked on many award winning campaigns (including Clios),

and even had my work published in Graphis International

multiple times. (i.e. I know what the hell I'm doing at least most

of the time).

 

Most, here (including me) had the same reaction to initially

viewing the images. Let me spell it out ...S...E...X. Available sex.

The products linked to the concept are all about that...sex. The

men want it and the ladies got it. All the "ANAL-IZING going on

here on this post reminds me exactly why a lot of advertising

these days has been derailed: personal opinions running

amuck instead of assuming the role of the target audience. You

do NOT have to show any of the "gentleman's club". Just add the

brand name and it's a done deal. As to being soft porn, so what?

Anyone taken a peek at a Hip Hop video lately? Even the choice

of models is brillant. They feel available as opposed to the

"distant", look but don't touch", women of Victoria Secret. Perfect

for an audience looking to hook up, both male and female. Both

the young men and the women viewing this will FEEL they have

a chance. All the nonsense about rules (don't show slutty poses

for underware marketing) is old school, mass marketing, lowest

common demonator crap that is for Sears catalogs and failing

K-Mart layouts.

 

Finally, John is dead on that much more marketing in future will

be subtle or blatant product placement. It is exactly where

marketing is going due to the ever increasing cost of traditional

marketing media and the growing influence of programing sans

commercials.

 

And I certainly wouldn't have posted this here nor on the

"Fashion" forum John. You need to develop this approach, push

it farther, and get it in front of people who get it, and are

desperate for "accessable" work with a gritty realism (which

suprisingly even includes companies like K-Mart who WILL go

out of business if they don't get with the program). I know, my

son is an inner city Detroit Techno Pop era Art Director currently

trying to help them out of the hole.

 

Anyway, just some "passionate" food for thought.

[leanne_newton]

Problem with advertising is that you don't have much of a choice in getting it seen by the select audience you perhaps crave --- and you don't have much time to get yr point across either....

Here's another successful campaign picture , same client, same high visibility.....<div></div>

[h._p.]

Thanks, Marc. That's what I was trying to say all along in my bumbling fashion.

 

As Leanna says, though, if you're shooting for someone you take what they want taken in the style they want it. I got out of commercial photography when I no longer felt like doing that (and found more remunerative things to be going on with).

[leanne_newton]

Myths abound on the subject of commercial photography , and to avoid artistic discussions altogether because the more variety the better , I think it makes for a more interesting world, here are a few more thoughts.....the photographer is usually chosen for style & feel, and of course technical ability.

There is then the responsibility of producing an image which is arresting, and shows off the client's product at the same time.

This is not always easy, and takes nerve too.

[fotografz]

Look ladies and gentlemen, there are a boatload of companies

who don't get it, and they will NOT be in business, or lose major

market share, in fairly short order if they don't wise up really

soon. Many are run by people who have become dependant on

consumer research numbers to hide behind until their

unimaginative little minds are shocked into reality by major sales

losses (after the consumer with the cash does the REAL voting

with their hearts and minds). Ad agencies are under increasing

pressure to help, but are stymied at every turn by fear ladened

corporate cultures. This trickles down to the art director and

eventually to the photographer. Yet there are some advertisers

who do get it (often start-ups like John's client), and represent

where some of the bigger clients will eventually go, but usually to

late. Long term brand building is experiencing a rush of

pressure as the landscape does a transformation. That means

there will be opportunities for creative and unorthodox

approaches in photography. Unfortunately, I see very little work

these days that does that with a usable purpose. Most the

samples I see, and I see more in a day than most do all year,

are boring and derivative to the point of plagiarism. Revolution is

on the horizon because billions of dollars will be up for grabs.

So, work on your technique and concepts all you pros out there,

or you will also be crying out... "What happened?"

[leanne_newton]

This is turning into an interesting discussion. I agree with Marc that art directors very rarely come up with original layouts. Personally, I do my best to bring these sometimes time worn concepts to life, & shoot whatever I like in my free time.

Photographers have always needed to develop their photography, both conceptually and technically, so there's nothing new there.

John mentions the satisfaction of working alone, and having full control of the final layout, but with bigger budget clients this is not usually the case, and it can be very stimulating to work with talented art directors as well.

[h._p.]

Not to play devil's advocate here but the one thing I've noticed in my not so short life is that there are always new fashions in sales and marketing and the companies that seem to succeed are those that adopt just a bit of the fashions while still retaining their core identities.

 

Interestingly, there was an article in the Times yesterday about the longevity of companies (there's a Danish company that's been around since the 13th century) and the conclusion was that the long lived companies were those which moved slowly and adopted new ideas sparingly. The short-lived ones are those which jump onto every passing bandwagon. I'm not sure I entirely buy the premiss but it's certainly food for thought.

 

Anyway as the French say "The more things change the more they stay the same". It won't be long before all the models are wearing crinolines...

[fotografz]

They didn't have TV in the 13th century. Now it is even in the

poorest persons' home in the industrialized countries...with

computers running right up behind them. Fashions and trends

don't change by year, it's happening almost daily. The core

brand essence has to hold steady, but how it is delivered must

remain elastic or the brand will loose it's public. Photography is

a major emotional medium to that end.

[leanne_newton]

When you get down to it, this applies to photographers as well. 'The core brand essence has to hold steady, but how it is delivered must remain elastic...'

Regards

[cosmo_genovese]

First of all, unless it's a GQ-like men's magazine, 99% of fashion photography is about selling products that appeal to <I>women</I>; women must be able to look at the photos and say, "Yes; I can look like that in that [choose your fashion article]." Second, foremost is selling the product, no matter what, by imbuing the photographs with an allure or invoking a mood. True, you don't have to see every stitch in a dress. Fashion photos can be blurry, have movement, so long as the central point is to sell the item. These photos that you propose fail to evoke that essential <I>feeling</I> that defines really good fashion photography like that of David Bailey, Patrick Demarchelier, Ellen Von Unwerth, Sarah Moon, Deborah Turbeville, Helmut Newton, Guy Bourdin, Bruce Weber, Richard Avedon, Herb Ritts, Irving Penn, <I>inter alia</I>, to name a few of the more prominent fashion stars.

[h._p.]

Well, I thought we'd agreed this wasn't fashion photography but soft porn to sell the website, or have I missed something?

[jkantor]

The entire point.

[jkantor]

But I do need to be fair. Your clients are a south American lingerie line and an upscale hip-hop nightclub. Your readership is 50/50 male and female, predominantly black, but also multicultural. How would you shoot it?

[h._p.]

You keep saying that everyone's wrong except you, John. I find that a little odd...

[h._p.]

Sorry, I didn't answer your question. The answer is I wouldn't be doing that sort of work in the first place. My interest in unclad females is these days largely academic. Anyway, I never, ever, said they weren't good pictures - I just object to you calling this a fashion layout.

[fotografz]

This is how boxes are built.

 

You can't do this. This isn't that. The greats did this.

 

Absolute suffocation.

[jkantor]

The distinctions between "fashion," catalog, and content are becoming meaningless. Traditional advertising relied on a passive audience that images would be placed in front of. However, today, audiences are increasingly in control. Look at what the remote (along with almost infinite program choices) has done to change the face of television advertising compared to, say, the 50's. Online media (which are the future) only exacerbate the problem from the advertiser's standpoint. Online, the _only_ effective form of advertising is product placement within your "content" - and that will increasingly influence all other types of media, including print (but print will also be increasingly irrelevent).

[h._p.]

Let's see if I've got this right...

 

You take soft porn photos and you place your product in them? Fine, no problem with that, although a lot of people would have, I think.

 

So where's the product????

[jkantor]

The point is the market for this publication won't have a problem with it. And the product is the lingerie and setting (though this is primarily a brand marketing piece). Or do you avert your eyes from this kind of filth? (Better watch out, I think Giselle showed a nipple in Vogue this month.)

 

I asked before: given the market and clients, how would you shoot it?

[twmeyer]

I certainly wouldn't have titled the first image "Spread One"... hahaha. <p>You can convey vibrant sexuality and an upbeat attitude that's fun to be around in many ways. In this thread we can see two very different styles, delivering this same content to two different demographics, "Tutti Frutti" and "Spread One". I would try to combine some of both by having less whorehouse attitude than "spread..." and more sexual agressiveness than "Tutti...". <p>Showing these models dressed as women might actually dress for the club (which probably needs no embellishment) but boldly revealing their own lingerie would be my approach. This way, the club is seen to have attractive adventuresome women that wear really nice lingerie and that you should go if you <i>are</i> that sort of person, or would like to <i>meet</i> that sort of person... t

[jkantor]

"Models gone wild" - a good idea for future shoots. However, to be done right it would require some extras. I had originally planned to do some staged nightclub shots the same day, but it didn't come to pass.

[leanne_newton]

I posted "Tutti Frutti " to illustrate that the product should be part of the 'content' of advertising photography. In this case the product is the bed linen, the target market very family orientated. Nothing S.E.X.Y intended, really.