Wisner Experience - The other side of the fence.

[struan_gray]

Brian, I don't suppose you would like to comment on what the

corrector element actually does? Is there a simple design rule

of thumb that would let me make a corrector for my Symmars out

of old milk bottle tops (or, at a pinch, the Edmund catalogue)?

[michael_kravit]

Folks,

 

I don't care if the guy is building custom one of kind or mass produced and machined cameras. The fact is if you are to be in business you must sell products that work, are engineered peoperly and are well tought out. In anotherwords, Wisner has been doing this long enough to know how to make a film holder work, a lens board fit, and glue a bellows with the proper adhesive.

 

What I did not say is that my same buddy also bought a 11x14 from wisner about 6 months ago. After a couple of weeks he sent it back because it was too heavy. However, we had the same problem with the bellows coming off the frame.

 

Many people pay a lot of money for these cameras. They are absolutely beautiful classic designs. Wisner needs to clean up his act and give people what they are paying for.

[brian_caldwell]

"Brian, I don't suppose you would like to comment on what the corrector element actually does? Is there a simple design rule of thumb that would let me make a corrector for my Symmars out of old milk bottle tops (or, at a pinch, the Edmund catalogue)?"

 

-- Struan Gray , April 29, 2003; 04:04 A.M. Eastern

 

Struan:

The main function of the corrector was to eliminate lateral color, which was horrendous in an individual cell used alone. Distortion was also reduced from about 4% to less than 1%. Coma was not an issue because it was corrected in each cell. The design of the corrector is simple enough (one element is plano-convex and the other is plano-concave) that it may be possible to work out something using off-the-shelf lens elements, but to tell you the truth I never really thought about this. One problem is that in order to achieve a compact design you really need to use a high index crown glass for the positive element, but most off-the-shelf lenses use low-index BK7. If you're willing to live with a more bulky corrector then you can get good results with BK7 in the positive lens and F2 in the negative lens, both of which are very common glasses. A larger corrector has the added bonus of doing a better job of correcting distortion. Mounting the lenses would be quite an undertaking unless you're an experienced machinist.

 

The current Schneider Apo-Symmar doesn't appear to have coma-free cells (judging from patent data), however the corrector that I designed for Wisner will still eliminate most of the lateral color and distortion from the rear cell. The old convertible Symmar may work better for this.

 

Brian

[struan_gray]

Thanks Brian.

 

Is there simple design rule? Could I measure the lateral colour

in a test shot of a point source and then calculate the powers of

the two elements? Or do I need to dig out a full ray-tracer and

get my hands dirty?

 

I got the impression from descriptions of the Wisner set that a

single corrector would work with cells of different focal lengths,

so I'm dreaming of a corrector that could be used with one or

more of the older convertible Symmars I have. Something that

would work with any of the lenses in No. 1 shutters would be very

useful, for me at least.

 

I can make or adapt pretty well anything mechanical using the

workshops here (I work in a Physics department). On the other

hand a custom run of something this simple wouldn't be so very

exhorbitant from one of the optics houses. I could always get

rich (ha!) selling the spares on eBay.

 

I can't imaging ever ordering anything from Wisner.

[dan_smith]

For those who have the Wisner back & holder that don't work right and don't fit I offer the name & email of Gary Hurst, master machinist & LF photographer who has been quietly re-doing the backs of Wisner mammoth cameras to make them work properly. He has done so for a number of mammoth camera Wisner photographers, correcting problems that the owners have found to be real trouble. You can get in contact wiht him at g-hurst@email.msn.com

 

He has modified backs and done custom modifications of film holders so they register the film in the same location when inserted in the large backs.. so the image gottten on film is the same viewed on the ground glass. This ends the frustration of carefully composing the image and then getting in the darkroom & discovering the negative is 1/2 to 3/4 inches off what you worked so hard to get. One I have watched with interest is the modification in holding the film back on so it doesn't fall out, breaking the ground glass as well as his modification of the locking mechanism so when you fold these mammoth cameras & try carrying them with the handle they don't flop open.

I know his work as he has made a number of custom lens boards & other items for me and other LF photographers. Being familiar with the problems of Wisner design helps in correcting it and he has experience with them.

One thing I do know is that he does what he says, when he says he will do it & lets you know what is going on.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

I find Dan Smiths post funny. Apparently you have to spend upwards of $5000 to get a Wisner ULF camera, wait a year or more to get it and then once you have it you have to send it to another person so it can be adjusted and finished correctly.

 

Hmmmmm...seems the barbarians are at the gate and Mr. Wisner has not noticed.

[brian_caldwell]

Is there simple design rule? Could I measure the lateral colour in a test shot of a point source and then calculate the powers of the two elements? Or do I need to dig out a full ray-tracer and get my hands dirty?

 

 

I got the impression from descriptions of the Wisner set that a single corrector would work with cells of different focal lengths, so I'm dreaming of a corrector that could be used with one or more of the older convertible Symmars I have. Something that would work with any of the lenses in No. 1 shutters would be very useful, for me at least.

 

 

I can make or adapt pretty well anything mechanical using the workshops here (I work in a Physics department). On the other hand a custom run of something this simple wouldn't be so very exhorbitant from one of the optics houses. I could always get rich (ha!) selling the spares on eBay.

 

 

I can't imaging ever ordering anything from Wisner.

 

-- Struan Gray , April 30, 2003; 05:51 A.M. Eastern

 

Hi Struan:

I checked a few lens catalogs, and it seems that no one sells negative lenses made of flint glass. If you want to try making this yourself you might try using the design below as a starting point. The two elements on the front side of the stop comprise the corrector. Lateral color can be varied by moving the front positive lens toward or away from the negative lens, and you should be able to use this feature to match the chromatic aberration in a single Symmar cell. Distortion will also change as you do this, but not nearly as much as the lateral color. If you use various Symmar cells that are just scaled versions of each other, then the corrector will work for all of them due to the linear nature of lateral color.

 

 

System/Prescription Data

 

File : C:\My Documents\Lenses\JBC\SK2 corrector.ZMX

Title: Single Cell Corrector

Date : WED APR 30 2003

SURFACE DATA SUMMARY:

 

Surf Radius Thickness Glass Diameter

OBJ Infinity Infinity 0

1 180.8077 5 SK2 55.93834

2 Infinity 18.93255 54.01721

3 Infinity 3.5 LF7 31.05516

4 174.5331 7 28.20893

STO Infinity 4.24793 23.52947

6 -72.84862 2.2 PK2 26.68787

7 -47.30028 4.98529 27.76379

8 -33.15917 3.0947 KZFN1 30.71948

9 -286.672 12 SK14 36.6754

10 -43.39605 361.6888 42.99958

IMA Infinity 333.8919

[erik]

For optics, you might wish to look at some of the telescope sites (www.astromart.com

is my preferred one). There are a variety of manufacturers there who make American

stuff. Notably, there are also quite a few sources taht have arrangements with ex-

soviet optics labs in Asia, which seem to produce quality optics at significant

discount; most of them do custom work i hear though you may need a minimum

order. APM, for example, or TEC, might be a place to check--and see the other

Astromart links as well.

[clayh]

I've been trying to get a filmholder from the guy for a year now. (after these stories, I'm not sure why!) He's been paid for a year and a half. Last two times I've made my weekly nagging calls during business hours, no one answers. Think he's still in the country?

 

Clay

[michael_kravit]

That is terrible.

I would suggest that anyone ordering anything from Wisner Camera use a

credit card. That way you have recourse to get a refund.

 

As a follow-up, and in all fairness I have to report that my buddy spoke with

Ron Wisner today. Ron was extremely concerned, apologetic, and offered to

do anything that it takes to make it right.

 

The 14x17 and holders were shipped back today.....only time will tell if a

refund is forthcoming.

 

Mike

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

I guess you will let us know two years from now what happened with the camera or the refund. I gather Mr. Wisner must be very persuasive on the phone, otherwise why would anybody beleive any promises made?

 

The question is, why is he not concerned BEFORE the camera and holders go out?

[dan_smith]

I am posting this here as it was in another thread that is, unfortunately, making fun of Ron Wisner & Ken Hough. I think things need to be aired publicly about the real problems these businesses are facing as one is the formost Deardorff restoration specialist business and the other is the largest maker of wooden field cameras going today. As such, many have & continue to use their services & products. It is my firm belief that public discussion of the problems may help in getting them solved, before Attorneys become involved on both the private, state & federal level.

 

 

The very troubling aspect of this is that the topic even needs to be raised. Many of us who deal with selling our creations to the public face the same problems. In the past two years I have had two major problems of delivery and both were fired/dumped when I figured out what was going on. But, it hurt my business. To let the poor service continue as we have been discussing in these cases after it has been found out is enough in some states to institute legal investigation as an ongoing criminal enterprise. Accepting payment & failing to deliver, especially after making many 'promises' (read Lies, in non-legalese)and excuses is fraud,plain and simple. As to the nature of 'custom work' taking time. It certainly does. But niether Canham nor Phillips has these complaints. If they promise a delivery date they keep you apprised of where they stand, any glitches that may come up(and this can easily happen to even the finest businessman/craftsman/artist) and they deliver on or before the promised date. No good custom worker strings people out. To lie about shipping dates is even worse. To say 'all is done, send the rest of the payment & it goes out today' is even worse, again possibly being criminal fraud.(depending on your local prosecutor/State Attorney General/US Attorney) The most troubling aspect of this is that the two men named can and do excellent work... when it suits them. But to get a $3000-5000 'custom' camera that doesn't work right, falls apart or for which you have to spend another $300-1500 or so to get it working as it should have is inexcusable. And this happens. People send their cameras to others to make them work, spending more money in the process but knowing it will be fixed properly & in the time frame promised. That is the only thing many who order custom cameras want. They just want them to work, first time & every time. If I can get daily use in the field from a 1926 Deardorff, why can't someone expect the same from a new Wisner? If I can order ANY model Canham or Phillips(when he starts taking orders again) and know it will be to me on time, why is it so hard for Ron to do so or Ken Hough to do so on restorations? This is THEIR BUSINESS! Not a hobby. They get paid a premium for the products that SHOULD be among the finest in the world. But to get a camera that has to be sent back because the wrong front standard was put on or to get two years of excuses, promises & outright lies... someone should do jail time for that type of business dealing. If the two mentioned gentlemen would pay attention to business & quit promising what they can't deliver, stay on site working on production & delivery they would see all the negativity gradually disappear. Ron can make a beautiful camera. I have one and it is a backup to my Deardorff. A nice camera, pretty but not as comfortable in use as the old standard. That is personal preference only, not a statement on the cameras. I know many who would never part with their Wisners while at the same time they would never order a new one. They will only buy on the used market to avoid the problems that prompted this thread. I hope both Ron and Ken get the business aspects down or hire a business manager. They are too good to watch as their current practices force them into bankruptcy, cilil &/or criminal court. Enough with empty promises. Say what you will do and then deliver a superior product ahead of time. It costs less to do business that way. If you can't do it, make it a hobby & quit telling people you are a business.<div></div>