Nikon Advice..

[chuck_foreman1]

I came across these two lenses in a local shop. I have a 1.8 Nikkor and a Kiron 28mm. Although I have no complaints with the Kiron, I felt my Nikons, should sport Nikon glass. In the ad, a short zoom 35-70 and a fixed length 28mm are shown. There are so many Nikon-ista here, so a feedback on the pros-cons of each is welcomed.. As noted I have the 28mm and my style leans to building and landscapes...so tendence towards the wide lenses. The short zoom would be a complement, but the "fine" Nikon glass is welcome and ..?? will it outperform the Kiron? 

 

[James Bryant]

I have a 28mm f2.8 ais Nikkor that is a good lens I use all the time. The fact that it is non ais will limit what bodies you could use it with. It could be ais modified but that would add to the cost.

[bruce_z._li2]

I recently bought a Nikon 28 f2 non-AI in mint condition, and it took $35 (plus two-way shipping) for the Ai conversion. Since I guess Chuck you are in Europe, then there might be other choices locally. For higher value lenses, it is well worth it.

The 28mm in the photo seems to be the f3.5 version, which I do not have experience.

[John Seaman]

Well, the 28mm is already AI, so why bother converting it to AI-S? I'm not sure which 35-70 that is, it doesn't look like one of the superior constant aperture F/3.5 versions.

[John Seaman]

Ah, I see now that it's the F/3.5-4.5 version. In which case the price seems very much on the high side. Here's a review:

https://richardhaw.com/2020/07/04/repair-zoom-nikkor-35-70mm-f-3-3-4-5-ai-s/

Edited March 24 by John Seaman

[chuck_foreman1]

My Nikon bodies are the Nikkormat FT3, F301/N2000 and the F801s.  I assume the these lenses will work on all these bodies. The AI/AIs is something to do with the "Auto-indexing" IIRC.. Older cameras need to do "twist" to establish the max aperture?? Something like that.. and the AIS communicate ? mechanically or electrically to the body it'S attributes ie max aperture? I must admit I really don'T understand this too much.. I am confident these lenses will work on these bodies??

Will read that review John... I need to be selling stuff, not buying more!! 

[ben_hutcherson]

As said, the 28mm has been AI converted. AFAIK, you can't convert an AI lens to an AI-s. The difference between the two is that stop down lever on the back of the lens is linear-or moving it a certain amount always results in the same change in aperture-on AI-s lenses. If you play with an AI lens or AI-converted one next to an AI-s lens, and watch the movement of the aperture lever as you turn the ring(off the camera) you can see this.

Bodies that require non-AI lenses use the "bunny ears" to couple the meter to the lens. The reason for this is interesting, at least to me. The "bunny ears" are always located at the f/5.6 position. This means that the camera/meter always "knows" what aperture is set, but since TTL meters normally meter at full aperture, the camera needs to know what the maximum aperture actually is. For a lot of non-AI cameras(Nikon F FTn, Nikormat FTN, FT2, EL, Nikon F2 Photomic, F2S, F2SB) there's a mechanism that sometimes gets called "semi-auto indexing", where you set the maximum aperture by turning the aperture ring to maximum aperture after mounting. On some earlier bodies, namely the Nikkormat FT and the Nikon F T and Tn, you have to set the maximum aperture(you actually do it on the ASA dial-basically you line up the mark for the maximum aperture set with the film speed you're using). The non-TTL meters, like the original F Photomic and the F clip-on selenium meters, don't need to have the maximum aperture set since they don't actually care what it is.

The AI system is a bit of a different philosophy-it uses a "notch" in the aperture ring that interacts with a tab around the lens mount(or hanging down from the metering head). This only communicates whether the lens is set to wide open, or if not wide open how far down from maximum aperture it's set.

The 28mm should work fine on the FT3. It should also allow aperture priority and manual on your F-801.

The N2000 gets interesting. When Nikon started making AI lenses, they added a lug to the back of the lens that communicates the maximum aperture. I've never seen an AI converted lens, from Nikon or anyone else, that had this maximum aperture lug added. There are only a handful of cameras that even can "read" this lug, but the N2000 is one of those cameras. I'm working on memory rather than loading batteries in my N2000(even though it's sitting a few feet behind me) but the main thing you will lose on it with this lens is full program. Aperture priority and manual should work fine.

[orsetto]

ben_hutcherson posted a nice summary of how the non-AI, AI, and AI-s lenses couple to their respective generations of camera body. I would only add that the "upgrade" to AI-s ended up being a wet firecracker during the film camera era. Pretty much no Nikon cameras that anyone cared (or still cares) about actually utilized the AI-s features fully.  Other than the fussy, flaky, ill-fated FA camera that AI-s was invented to accommodate, there aren't any classic-era film bodies that strictly require the AI-s linear aperture lever for full practical functionality.

The FG and 301-401-501 don't often fall into the category of beloved sought-after cult classic Nikon models, but they are perhaps the only ones that make any use of the AI-s focal length lug (mounting a tele lens will shift their AE metering to favor faster shutter speeds). The EM (and some of the above) are the only bodies that read the fixed max aperture lug near the rear element of both AI and AI-s lenses (it affects their autoflash metering, and program mode of the models that have program exposure).

Many film and digital Nikon SLRs do "detect" an AI-s lens via the depression ground into their silver bayonet mounts, but then don't do anything much with that information. The convoluted FA design with its linear aperture requirement for program mode was simplified almost immediately into the FG system of "instant stop down" program metering. So unless you're a masochist babysitting a ticking-time-bomb Nikon FA, or a heavy user of auto flash metering with the two or three film bodies that couple with rear element lugs, you can safely ignore AI vs AI-s: just buy whichever version you can find at the best combination of condition and price.

For 95% of Nikon film bodies, the most significant factor is pre-AI/non-AI vs AI/AI-s. if you have an AI body, you'll need AI or AI-s lenses for broadly compatible mounting and meter coupling. If you have a pre-AI camera model, you don't need to even think about it: all manual focus Nikkor lenses have the "rabbit ears" that couple with pre-AI meters.

The big gray area of "gotcha" territory comes into play only with pre-AI lenses that have been hacked with aftermarket (non-Nikon) modifications for "AI compatibility". Nikon itself once provided a conversion service that swapped the old aperture rings for a genuine new AI aperture ring (as seen with the 28mm lens pictured earlier). Older pre-AI lenses updated with this genuine Nikon AI ring are safe to use on any Nikon film or digital camera body.

Unfortunately Nikon's supply of genuine AI conversion rings was depleted decades ago, so a great many pre-AI lenses have been "unofficially" hacked by their owners or independent techs. The majority of these Frankensteined lenses omit a crucial modification to make them safely mount on many of Nikons DSLRs, because its a lot of extra work and wasn't even on the radar during the film era when most were hacked. These very common "partial AI" lenses are fine to use on most Nikon film cameras, but should be avoided if you plan to also use on Nikon DSLR (unless the seller explicitly states and shows the lens has a "EE-Minimum Aperture" post carved on its aperture ring). If unsure, stick to later AI/AI-s lenses, or lenses that have the genuine Nikon aperture ring update (two engraved sets of aperture numbers, and perforated rabbit ears).

Other potential considerations would be the handful of lenses which were optically changed in the migration to AI-s, differences in operational feel, and the AF-D lens paradox. Some lenses like the 28mm f/2.8 got completely revised optics when they moved from AI to AI-s, others (mostly teles) were put in somewhat smaller barrels and/or got built-in lens hoods. The AI-s lenses all have much shorter focus ring travel (from close to far) than the AI or pre-AI: some photographers prefer this, others do not.

The screw-drive AF and AF-D lenses can be an interesting alternative if you want to share lenses between manual focus and (some) autofocus Nikon cameras. They are all AI-s by nature, coupling mechanically to manual AI bodies and electronically to AF bodies. However:, they lack the old rabbit ears that couple to the old pre-AI film camera meters. Nikon provides dimples on the aperture ring showing where rabbit ears can be optionally installed if desired, but I've never actually seen an AF lens that was modified that way. You can still mount an AF-D lens on a pre-AI camera, but you'll need to use less convenient stopped down uncoupled meter mode. Same applies to the small handful of manual focus Nikon Series E lenses sold for the EM/FG: these are AI-s but have no rabbit ears.

Edited March 28 by orsetto

[chuck_foreman1]

Thanks for this detailed explanation about the AI//s lenses. Seems both of these lenses will work with my bodies..just maybe not in program mode ...  Do you find the small zoom more to your liking in use than say a fixed length say 28mm. I never seemxs to find the 28mm too wide, but the 35 and some 42 mm lenses I have seem almost perfect for landscapes. Are these reasonable prices for 2nd hand Nikon lenses? The 25 euro more cost does offer a wider focal range,,,is this compromised due to the zoom...Is the 28mm a better glass alternative?

 

[orsetto]

Of the two you pictured, the 28mm Nikkor-H f/3.5 would be the choice of most photographers prioritizing optical quality. It was THE Nikon 28mm lens for many years, very good optics, high construction quality (all metal). This one has the genuine Nikon upgrade to full AI compatibility, making the asking price just about on the nose for a typical clean example with that upgrade.

At f/3.5, the maximum aperture is a bit slow compared to the now-common f/2.8: depending on your needs, this may have significance for viewing/focusing and shutter speed limitations indoors or in dim light. Like all of Nikons 28mm primes, this one has some field curvature: this can manifest as slightly blurry corners in landscape shots, and pose difficulty with closer uses. Nothing that can't be worked around, you just need to get a feel for how the lens images so you can use the quirks to your advantage. For example, field curvature can be exploited to get two objects at different distances in focus at the same time.

Of note, this version of vintage 28mm Nikkor is particularly prized by those who shoot infrared film or use infrared-modified DSLRs: it is one of the best performing lenses for the IR spectrum ever made. 

The 35-70 zoom is overpriced by this seller. It is a low-end kit lens, not terrible but not particularly good either. The size and zoom range is very convenient, but its very slow at 50mm and 70mm, making for dim viewing/focusing and shooting limitations in low light. Unlike similar AF kit zooms made for later DSLRs, this lens does not have aspheric elements to boost performance: its altogether just an average lens. Performance is fine stopped down to f/8, otherwise nothing special. If the size and zoom range appeal to you for travel/landscape use, I'd recommend looking for one at another shop or perhaps on eBay: in today's market this is an unpopular lens that can usually be found for much lower cost than 125 euro. You could try offering the shop 85 euro, if they accept that might be a decent deal if you want to get the lens quickly. 

Edited March 29 by orsetto

[chuck_foreman1]

Thanks for the feedback... I have seen this is aa "kit" lens from before. I have a 28mm Kiron which I use all the time with the few Nikons I have. The 50mm 1.8 lenses are very nice but see very little work. . The shop selling these is now a "Tourist" shop, but 20 years ago was a photo shop. The window with these items reflect probably the  owner, still somewhat vested in the shop. I need to sell stuff, not buy stuff... but ...???? 

[dan_fromm2]

Hmm.  I've had a 35-70/3.3-4.5, bought new, for ages.  As it aged, it was no longer parfocal.  That is, when focused at 70 mm and zoomed out to 35mm, it lost focus.  Not good.

[chuck_foreman1]

Ok.. I'm sold...If...If... I mean if, I buy one ..it will be 28mm
Tks