Z8 and Z9 Set up Webinar by Paul Van Allen from NPS

[ShunCheung]

Paul Van Allen is a rep for Nikon USA and mainly serves the Professional Services (NPS) community in the western US. I have talked to him quite a few times at various camera stores 10, 15 years ago, but not since the pandemic. He is going to conduct a webinar on the Z8/Z9 set up three times. Initially it was only going to be on Wednesday, January 24 from Mike's Camera in Colorado, hence it will be 6PM Mountain Time (GMT -7). But it looks like Paul has added two sessions, on January 25 with Glazer's in the Seattle area and then on February 7 with Pauls Photo in the Los Angeles area. Hence the last two will start at 6pm Pacific Time (GMT -8). Sorry, for those in Europe, we are talking about late night for you. Per Nikon USA convention, I do not think those events will be recorded. It looks like the first and third events can be in person as well.

The details are on Paul's FaceBook post.

https://www.facebook.com/paul.vanallen.56/posts/pfbid02ibWtPJ9vHAcFPnq7iNWqYpV9udyYW15sSeWzpngyYcVknZ9w6ZxgLK6Y5XChod33l

[ShunCheung]

The first one of the three presentations will be on Wednesday, January 24, the day after tomorrow.

[joseph_smith3]

Thanks Shun.  I just signed up for Wednesday's program. On my Z9, I have not as yet made many button selections, but have used the i (Info) screen for some selections. 

[ShunCheung]

Paul Van Allen is a long-time Nikon USA instructor and field rep. He is from California, moved to Connecticut, and Nikon relocated him to the Los Angeles area to serve the western states. I used to see him a couple of times a year around 2010, before a major local camera store went out of business in 2016. I last saw him in 2019 but not since the pandemic. I understand that he recently moved to Texas. For those who have watch this presentation before, it should be very good.

The talk on Wednesday, January 24, starts a 6pm Mountain Time as it will be in Colorado, but the Thursday one will start at 6pm Pacific. I have a different commitment on Thursday but may attend the one in February also.

[joseph_smith3]

I attended the video presentation via zoom on Wednesday evening. Paul did an excellent job. The presentation was not recorded so if you want to watch it when it gets presented again, watch it from a laptop or desktop where you can do screen saves. It had over 600 power point pages. 

[ShunCheung]

I also attended via Zoom on Wednesday evening. It was very good. Paul Van Allen mentioned that they are adding a 4th session, but he hasn't updated his FaceBook post yet. It sounds like the extra session will be on February 6??

In any case, the second one will be this evening, Thursday, January 25.

[ShunCheung]

Just a quick reminder that the third presentation of the same problem will be on Wednesday, February 7 at 6pm Pacific. They are working on a fourth session with the same content, but the exact date has not been finalized yet.

[ShunCheung]

There is one more session scheduled for tomorrow, Thursday, March 14, 2024 at 6pm EDT, which is GMT -4, hosted by Robert's Camera in Indianapolis. These sessions are never recorded.

https://classes.robertscamera.com/event/the-z8-z9-set-up-to-step-up-buttons-dials-menus-and-settings/?fbclid=IwAR3VbHQATAld01l5TLpugwXFZfCT_EV3Lbvngboq9yG5ZT08ELU1vgJBXQg

[ilkka_nissila]

On a slightly related topic (sorry if it belongs to another thread), Nikon launched a settings guide for wildlife photography for the Z8 and Z9:

 

https://download.nikonimglib.com/archive6/jsNgx001E7HK063uyaG39rhhoL57/Z9Z8_TG_Wildlife_(En)01.pdf

 

I found it interesting that in the wildlife guide, they suggest setting auto ISO max ISO to 2000; I've sort of come to the conclusion that the Nikon 45 MP sensor works at its best up to 2000 and above that the 24 MP and 20 MP sensors come onto their own, but this doesn't quite mean that there is no benefit to the high resolution above 2000, it's more subtle than that. But I find it interesting that Nikon would themselves come to the same recommendation. (I think this is widely disagreed upon, but as a user of multiple cameras I've come to these conclusions. 😉)

They also have settings guides for sports, auto capture, and video. In DSLRs I found that one could better understand some aspects of the logic of the autofocus modes by reading the corresponding guides.

 

https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/589/Z_9.html

 

It does seem a bit bewildering, how many options there are for settings nowadays. Even when shooting, I sometimes end up getting tangled up in settings. I have been taking the first deer photos of the spring on Saturday and Monday, and I don't find it at all easy to come up with the right AF area settings that would work for a variety of scenarios. Deer tend to be dark and perhaps the AF has sometimes hard time recognizing the closest subject's face and eye(s). Most of the time things work well but some of the time I do get out-of-focus results. I do like the silence of the Z8 in this situation it allows photography to continue for a longer time.

 

For photographs of people I like the custom wide-area modes the most, making horizontal bars that cover the area where I would typically have faces, but with wildlife I've come to like the wide-area S best, as it allows a certain amount of specificity while enabling subject detection. Hopefully this is something I'll learn to do better in the future. 😉 

Edited March 20 by ilkka_nissila

[Dieter Schaefer]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:13 AM, ilkka_nissila said:

they suggest setting auto ISO max ISO to 200

 

On 3/20/2024 at 6:13 AM, ilkka_nissila said:

this is widely disagreed upon

And rightfully so - I'd not have a lot of my shots if I had limited the ISO to 2000; mine's set to 20000. I rather have a noisy image than a blurry one. I also 100% disagree with using "A" mode for birds in flight; it's the worst option one can pick as you need to be in control of the shutter speed, not the camera. M mode is where it's at, either with AUTO ISO on or off. At f/5.6 (500PF) or f/6.3 (800PF) (which is f/8 and f/9, respectively, with the 1.4x TC) and a minimum of 1/2000s shutter speed one very quickly would run against the ISO 2000 limit in anything but the best lighting conditions. I have  my doubts that their example image of a bird in flight (taken with the 600PF at f/6.3, 1/3200s was taken at an ISO below 2000.

[mike_halliwell]

Hummm, some of those example shots with settings are all over the place.

The Gannet shot @ 1/3200th.. why, it's a static portrait?

37 minutes ago, Dieter Schaefer said:

M mode is where it's at, either with AUTO ISO on or off

Spot on.  Subject motion blur has killed more shots than anything else, usually when I've underestimated the bird's speed 🙁

[ilkka_nissila]

3 hours ago, Dieter Schaefer said:

 I have  my doubts that their example image of a bird in flight (taken with the 600PF at f/6.3, 1/3200s was taken at an ISO below 2000.

The shot details say it was at ISO 2000. Two stops below sunny 16 seems reasonable with sun with a light cloud cover which is consistent with the appearance of the shot. 

I like A mode because it allows easy exposure compensation (EC) on the main command dial so I don't have to press and hold a button and then turn a dial to adjust EC which to me is very cumbersome in comparison. Shutter speed in A mode can be controlled with the minimum shutter speed setting in the Auto ISO menu. In the case of relatively fast shutter speed combined with small maximum aperture, the choices are not exactly luxurious. But it's interesting how differently people feel about these choices. 🙂 

 

For birds in flight, different shutter speeds lead to different visual outcomes and the fast shutter speed is just one option. It's a lot harder to get good results with slow shutter speeds but it can happen, with the benefit of implied movement and lower noise. 

 

[ilkka_nissila]

1 hour ago, mike_halliwell said:

The Gannet shot @ 1/3200th.. why, it's a static portrait?

Well, gannets feeding can involve pretty fast action in close-ups;

 

Maybe it's an appropriate shutter speed.

 

[mike_halliwell]

Maybe.... 😉

[Dieter Schaefer]

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

The shot details say it was at ISO 2000.

Not in my copy of the guide. It only states the equipment used, and for the shooting conditions the shutter speed, aperture and (unnecessarily) the focal length (again). The settings on the following page (29) are suggested but it doesn't state that they were applied for the image shown.

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

Shutter speed in A mode can be controlled with the minimum shutter speed setting in the Auto ISO menu.

When I started out with bird photography using a D200, I used S mode as there wasn't an option to set a minimum shutter speed for A mode in the AutoISO menu. I believe that came with the D300 - and I tried it but it was cumbersome since for birds in flight I had to set it for a minimum of 1/1000s - which then precluded me from setting a longer value for a perched bird. I eventually settled for M mode with AutoISO on most of the time. It gives me total freedom to choose shutter speed and aperture as the situation demands (aperture is fully open only about 99% of the time for me). AutoISO takes care of the exposure and I compensate with the exposure compensation as needed (set to the control ring of the 800PF). That way I don't have to get into a menu to change the minimum shutter speed (when using A mode) and/or set ISO values manually. I can also very quickly turn AutoISO off in situations were it isn't needed or even detrimental to what I am trying to accomplish.

Also, as suggested in the guide, I don't have the Fn2 button to "waste" on playback; there are more important functions to take care of first. If anything, the Z9 still has too few of those programmable keys.

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

But it's interesting how differently people feel about these choices.

It took me years to arrive at the solution that works best for me. I don't claim that it's the only one or even the best one for anyone else.

 

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

Well, gannets feeding can involve pretty fast action in close-ups

Have made that experience with other birds - they can be some very rapid movement when one least expects it. I also often have no choice but to use a fast shutter speed on a perched bird - I just don't want to miss the shot should it take off. Because there's no chance to change the shutter speed when that happens.

 

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

For birds in flight, different shutter speeds lead to different visual outcomes and the fast shutter speed is just one option. It's a lot harder to get good results with slow shutter speeds but it can happen, with the benefit of implied movement and lower noise. 

Certainly, and with M mode/AutoISO I am ready for it because I control the shutter speed - not the camera. Photographing prop planes with slow shutter speeds (1/60 - 1/320) to get prop blur is good training to improve one's panning skills.

 

[ilkka_nissila]

14 hours ago, Dieter Schaefer said:

Not in my copy of the guide. It only states the equipment used, and for the shooting conditions the shutter speed, aperture and (unnecessarily) the focal length (again). The settings on the following page (29) are suggested but it doesn't state that they were applied for the image shown.

Okay, I was looking at a different image (p. 9). 

 

For me the problems with manual mode include the clumsy way to access EC and relatively time-consuming adjustment of shutter speed (in 1/3 stops it can take time to scroll (say) from 1/3200 to 1/200s. However, for other situations I do need the 1/3 stop control and so I'm not going to switch to full stop increments on the Z8. With the Zf the full stops are available on the shutter speed dial and 1/3 stops on the main command dial, without having to go to a menu to access the two options. E.g. when a deer goes from open area to inside a pine forest, the exposure settings needed change wildly in seconds. Aperture priority with Auto ISO handles this fairly well: A fast shutter speed with moderate ISO is suggested by the camera in bright light and when in the forest, it sets the maximum ISO I have set in the menu and achieves the rest of correct exposure by allowing the shutter speed to slow down. Often the deer stop for brief moments once in the forest, and a slowish shutter speed can work better than fast shutter speed with ultra-high ISO. Easy access to EC is important in this scenario because the forest is dark but there can patches of bright light. 

 

I am really bad at panning at slow speeds though. But moderate speeds can be OK and slow speeds can be successful once in a while. 

[Dieter Schaefer]

3 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

For me the problems with manual mode include the clumsy way to access EC

I suppose that's why Nikon implemented Easy Exposure Compensation. I tried it and just couldn't get used to it though.

3 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

E.g. when a deer goes from open area to inside a pine forest, the exposure settings needed change wildly in seconds. Aperture priority with Auto ISO handles this fairly well

That's indeed a scenario where this selection works. With birds in flight though the shutter speeds needs to stay fast - more readily achieved when it's already locked in.

 

3 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

relatively time-consuming adjustment of shutter speed (in 1/3 stops it can take time to scroll (say) from 1/3200 to 1/200s

That's 12 clicks on the command dial. I usually get 8 steps in one go - so that'll get me down to 1/500s in this scenario. I only have to remember to turn in the right direction 😜

[mike_halliwell]

I tried EC on the Function Ring, but do get a bit messed up with Nikon's ring 'order' and the ability to reach lefthandedly.

My Z8 and 800mm PF has AF acquisition problems when the target is well OOF and needs a MF nudge, again with the left hand. 

...and then there's access to the Ln function buttons, which I've got set to cycle AF mode.

For a lens designed for handholding, that's a lot of shifting for the left hand with a pretty weighty lens  

[ilkka_nissila]

6 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

I tried EC on the Function Ring, but do get a bit messed up with Nikon's ring 'order' and the ability to reach lefthandedly.

My Z8 and 800mm PF has AF acquisition problems when the target is well OOF and needs a MF nudge, again with the left hand. 

...and then there's access to the Ln function buttons, which I've got set to cycle AF mode.

For a lens designed for handholding, that's a lot of shifting for the left hand with a pretty weighty lens  

I think these long lenses are still primarily meant to be used on a tripod or monopod, otherwise it is not easy to figure out how those lens controls are meant to be used in practice. 😉

 

[Dieter Schaefer]

7 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

My Z8 and 800mm PF has AF acquisition problems when the target is well OOF and needs a MF nudge

Same here with the Z9 and both the 800PF and the 500PF.

 

16 minutes ago, ilkka_nissila said:

For a lens designed for handholding, that's a lot of shifting for the left hand with a pretty weighty lens  

Indeed. Nonetheless, I like the options though.

17 minutes ago, ilkka_nissila said:

Ln function buttons, which I've got set to cycle AF mode.

Haven't tried that yet, might be a better use than the "recall focus position" I currently have programmed for it and not even used once so far.

[mike_halliwell]

Many of the Nikon promo images show handheld use of the Z800mm.

I fact the Nikon UK promo page ONLY shows handheld use by a female photographer.

There was some 'issue' about her holding technique I remember.

[ilkka_nissila]

On 3/24/2024 at 11:46 AM, mike_halliwell said:

Many of the Nikon promo images show handheld use of the Z800mm.

I fact the Nikon UK promo page ONLY shows handheld use by a female photographer.

There was some 'issue' about her holding technique I remember.

It makes sense that Nikon would advertise the 800mm as hand-holdable because it is uniquely so among 800 mm lenses of roughly comparable maximum apertures (though there are not many with exactly this aperture, there are some with nearby f/5.6 which are arguably less hand-holdable, and at the end of the day, at this focal length, perhaps 1/3 stop is not that great a difference in the quality of the finished images as it is in portability and price). However, some of the controls on the lens (such as the rear Fn button, the Memory Set button, and switches) are not accessible when hand-holding the lens in normal shooting position. This is true of just about every larger Nikon telephoto and suggests that the designers thought there are users who would be using the lens on a tripod or monopod. Otherwise there is no practical way of using the Fn button, for example, while shooting, unless it is programmed as a toggle.

 

I personally know that I was often uncomfortable using the 500 PF hand-held for longer periods of time and consecutive hand-held shots had widely varying compositions (because I couldn't hold it in exact position). I got good results with it, but still it's less controllable when hand-held than when using a tripod. With even longer focal lengths it becomes progressively more difficult to achieve precisely composed results consistently hand held. Of course, it could be that this only bothers me and not others. 😉 I have no present plans on purchasing the 800 mm though. I think the 400/4.5 is the best suited one for my uses of the ones that they currently make. The 100-400 is nice and a flexible lens but it doesn't quite match the impressive out-of-focus rendering I see from the 400/4.5 (in posted images mostly) and also the 2/3 stops can contribute to image quality in photos of mammals especially (nocturnal ones such as deer). What is nice about the 100-400 is that it does appear to perform well wide open, and it does not change balance much when the zoom setting is adjusted. However, still I see images from the 70-200/2.8 to be crispier than the 100-400, and other people's images from the longer primes also. The 100-400 is very hand-holdable, though. Use of the rear control ring while holding the lens does get a bit awkward but it's possible. As long as the lens is not much heavier than the 100-400, I don't see any problem with temporarily holding the weight of the lens from the camera, but for a longer period of time it would not be terribly comfortable.

[mike_halliwell]

18 minutes ago, ilkka_nissila said:

Otherwise there is no practical way of using the Fn button, for example, while shooting, unless it is programmed as a toggle.

Yup, too true. But it does work as a AF mode toggle. Spot, Custom Square and Auto.

Although I got very confused the other day with my F 400mm 2.8 FL. The LFn kept resetting the focus; Doh, it's set to Focus Memory and not AF Mode. Must fix that soon!

[mike_halliwell]

I'm currently weighting up ditching the 500mm PF and getting the Z600mm PF.

My D850 is getting very little, ie, no outdoor action, but I'll keep it for studio use, it still takes a very nice picture.

I've a fair number of longer F mount lenses to trade in to soften the pocket pain 😂

[Dieter Schaefer]

8 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

I'm currently weighting up ditching the 500mm PF and getting the Z600mm PF.

What's your reasoning for considering that trade? Optically, both perform nearly identical and the 500PF/FTZII performs very well on a Z9 (and I assume the Z8 as well). Personally, I can't make a case for owning both the 600PF and the 800PF - though the 600 will certainly be easier to travel with on an airplane. But so does the 500PF.