PMK, graded paper, VC paper

[philip_sweeney]

I was alerted to this subject by the forum: PMK negs on VC vs graded

paper. So after reading barry thornton's "edge of darkness" I compared

prints on Ilford VC FB and Galerie (graded) using a FP4 PMK negative.

in his book he shows a print on each paper at grade 2 and the VC print

is lower in overall contrast, but his point is the improved quality on

graded paper (highlight contrast and local contrast). So I wanted a

more "apples to apples" comparison. To do so I printed my test

negative (a white building with black trim) on grade 2 oriental and

grade 3 VC. The overall contrast was very comparable and I feel I

achieved a good set for comparison. The graded print was exceptional

by comparison: deeper black, great highlight and local contrast! The

VC print seemed soft and lifeless and the highlight contrast was

horrible. Goodbye VC papers for my PMK negatives!

[eugene_singer]

Philip, it's obvious that the yellow stain in PMK negatives will absorb enough of the blue light to effect the contrast of VC papers. Similar to adding additional green light to reduce the contrast and soften the appearance of the print. This is only one of the reasons why I don't use Pyro developers. To paraphrase your conclusion: "Googbye PMK for my VC papers"!

[james___]

As with everything in photography (and life in general) you can achieve the same results by tailoring the material for it optimum performance. Many photographers use Pyro "and" VC papers with tremendous results. But you have to tailor your processing and printing to obtain those results. your test results were not valid. You tried to make your ford escort drive like a ferrari. Tailor the negative properly to it's intended use and you will get the deep blacks you want. If your test was really valid then you would have seen that VC paper works wonderfully with Pyro. Look at all the great photographers who are using this combination and getting excellent results with it. That doesn't mean that it is the only combination that should be used. Graded papers are good papers for what they are used for. But you can get the same results using VC papers. You just have to tailor your negative to which ever material you are using. Open your eyes and mind and quit taking someones word for something. Experiment and learn what works for you. And don't get hung up on finite solutions to problems. Use everything and learn each materials attributes, then use each to your advantage. Just because Barry thronton likes graded paper doesn't mean it is the only material that is capable of producing excellent results. Barnbaum used graded papers for decades. then he learned to use VC papers and now prints almost exclusively on VC papers with excellent results. These results are every bit as good as those he obtained using graded papers. Sexton has done the same thing. They bothy still use graded papers for those images that they want a certain look with. Your vision and the material you use should dictate which you use. Quit following heroes and become one yourself. Even heroes are wrong.

[wieslaw1]

James - I am glad for your clarification. I have been recently using the VC Agfa paper to my entire satisfaction, and was wondering how they compare with modern graded papers. I say modern, since I had a 20 year long pause in darkroom endeavors. In the past I used Ilford Gallery, Agfa Portriga Rapid, both graded and excellent.

 

For me the advantage of VC papers is the local contrast control.

 

To Philip and Eugene - I do not know your PMK negative developers, but I can assure you that I do not have a contrast control problem with my negatives which I sometimes develop in a pyrocatechin developer (staining), and print with PC filters, either cold light or condenser illumination.

[ed_pierce2]

One of my favorite quotes: "different is not the same". And I agree with the responses, you have to find out for yourself. I seek out information and advice, but only really believe what I see myself. Personally I've been test driving PMK for a few months now. I've made some negatives which really don't print well on VC; no sparkle. They look great on graded paper. Could this be rectified by manipulating the developer? I don't know; there are a lot of variables. I've been wondering about image stain vs overall stain, ways to manipulate that, and how that might affect printing on VC. Seems to me that more stain in the high values brings down the contrast quite a lot.

 

Being the cheap, lazy printer that I am, I would love it if everything printed perfectly on VC. So far it's not the same. So, it still holds true that producing a fine print is not an easy painless task.

[philip_sweeney]

james: I did the comparisons just for the reason you state: to prove it for myself. the test negative is tailored for VC paper in terms of density. My point is the problems PMK negs can cause for VC papers. I have used VC paper significantly, but I will not with PMK!

[c_p_goerz]

Although its only one test you have found what bugged the $%^&

out of me for ages...PMK does not look that great on VC, plain

and simple!

 

The pudding was certainly in the proof!! Anyone who wants to try

the same test go ahead and be objective...then write back here

about how wrong you were to question the supremacy of a pyro

based developer, I won't gloat!! ;-) Its just not possible to tailor

each and every neg to exactly every paper curve unless you shoot

in a studio. There you have all the controls at hand in terms of

contrast ratios etc. Shooting landscapes is a lot more of a 'seat

of your pants-get the light while I can' type of situation where

unexpected contrast/light levels make for

inaccurate/unexpectedly high/low contrast exposures that won't

match any curves etc.

 

If you can make VC and PMK work great, I can't and tried for

years. If only I could get a refund on all my time and money

wasted!!

 

Sure you can also not use PMK, its a developer that demands

more care in use etc but I will NEVER go back to a

Metol/Phenidone developer ever again. I couldn't imagine

developing a negative in a 'second best' developer and getting to

sleep at night. The 'what ifs' would be too much to bear.

 

Phew! I feel better, thanks!!

 

CP Goerz

[ben_calwell]

A few years ago, Carl Weese wrote an article in, I believe, Photo Techniques Magazine, in which he raved about pyro negs printed on VC papers. My memory of the article may be faulty, but I recall that the big deal with this combination is the ability to print long-scale subjects with ease. Apparently, the yellow-green stain acts as a built-in mask, which helps in bringing in the texture on those really dense areas of the negative. I'm just starting to experiment with PMK and have found that it works great on night scene shots when printed on VC papers.