douglas k. Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 "Free speech just gets taken too far sometimes." I think Stalin once uttered those words. Or was it Chairman Mao? Or Saddam Hussein? Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristian dowling Posted March 24, 2003 Author Share Posted March 24, 2003 I get it, I must be like them right!!!? If I wanted people to focus on what I had to say and my political opinions, I'd go to a mental institution, as people there would probably make more sense. I thought this forum wa about photography? I am confused. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Kristian The photo is good, but to those of us who have seen thousands of absurd Socialist Workers slogans - all of which (whether it was due to the imposition of government cuts under the Thatcher regime, or in fact anything in the news) led to suggestions that we all fight together to bring down the house of cards that is capitalism. I therefore cannot take it the message or the photo at all seriously. The SW slogan would be the same if they put up the price of a dog permit. Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markci Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 <i> "Free speech just gets taken too far sometimes." I think Stalin once uttered those words. Or was it Chairman Mao? Or Saddam Hussein? Hmmm... </i> <p> Close: it was our president. Regarding an anti-Bush parody site he said "There ought to be limits to freedom." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas k. Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 www.gwbush.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristian dowling Posted March 24, 2003 Author Share Posted March 24, 2003 Gees, just leave this thread alone please. How about some respect for my subject (child). You people who analyse each others' words and take everything literally must have extremly insignificant and boring lives. I thought this forum was for photographers, but I must have been wrong. We are the minority I guess. Please leave my post alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Forgive me for the long post, or if it is OT Kristian, I am not sure what you want from this thread. Yes, the purely political comments are overboard. But there were comments from myself and others that dealt with your subject and the censorship that some demanded from your own image. In fact some of of my previous posts had photography in mind. Remember I encouraged others to get from behind the keyboard, and take photos that met their perspectives of the situation. Your header seemed to indicate to me that this thread was not about a single image. If that was your intent, then a critique request would have been more to the point. Robert's comment about free speech was due in fact that the image he posted was deleted from another thread. And was deleted from this one too. I thought his image was a "respectful" post to yours. You had responded back in broader terms, and that just excited some even more. I know first hand how hard it is to hold off on comments sometimes (even like now). With some here there will be no meeting the middle. I freely admit that some of others have had to say (opinions opposite of mine) have met with with some reflection. But then I am willing to open my mind and heart. So don't despair, some of us are trying to keep to what we felt your thread is all about. Whether the images meet your expectations, that is for you to decide. [FWIW you and I are probably on the same side of the coin. I try to take journalistic approach and try to capture both sides where possible. Example of which can be seen in my portfolio: http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=291984 ] You are right in another view. I too thought this Forum was for photographers. I also had hopes that this Forum was more in tune of discussing photography in general. If you remember one of my posts in this thread was in regards to perceptions of photographs in the time they are viewed, and who photographed the image. This was in response to some comments of Robert's photograph of the hearse and the Air Force recruiting billboard. Robert has posted this image before. And at the time it had a very different meaning to me than when he posted it here. Maybe I missed the discussion of this thought of mine before it was deleted - but I don't remember you responding to it, or anyone else. But if there is any where on the internet to discuss topics such as this, I would think that Photo Net's Leica Forum would be the place. Do you agree? It is all about the photographic experience. I wonder if there is any interest here on the Leica Forum for discussions other than what Leica should do next, or what Leica did right/wrong with the MP. I would think that with what we spend on getting into Leica gear (whether new or used) that we would be more interested in the craft of photography. And this includes what photographs mean to us, and what they mean to others. Or are we just a bunch of rich (or want to be rich) gear heads? It disheartens me that some that post so vehemently on some subjects regarding the image, do not have even one image in the portfolio that Photo Net provides us all. Do I (and others) have the wrong expectations for this forum? Does anyone have other forums that they know of that one can discuss the implications and effects of photography? Or should I just keep my threads to what gear to buy or sell? Warm regards, Chip Lenkiewicz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 M6TTL 35 Summicron 400CN<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristian dowling Posted March 24, 2003 Author Share Posted March 24, 2003 Thanks for the comment Chip, you have made some very valid points. My intention of this thread, was similar to NO WORDS, but I wanted people to comment- within reason. Although, that term is pretty broad. I guess I should have stipulated that, but I don't like dictating and talking to people as if they are children. I wanted more pictures of children. thanks for the image and comments Chip <center> <img src="http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=1376276"> </center> Kristian Dowling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Kristian. Respectfully, a better title than "A new breed of hope" might be "indoctrination", because that's what's happening to these kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Eliot, At the risk of our comments being deleted, I will repeat what i had said before when my comments were deleted: Children are generally exposed to the politics of their parents at an early age. This may or may not affect the perceptions of the child at the point they reach an age to make choices for themselves. I for myself am more conservative than my parents in some regards, and more liberal in other ways too. This is a far cry from parents using their children to panhandle. Also if you look closely at the image that Kristian posted, you will see that the child is a just a bystander in the goings on. If you were to look at Kristian's portfolio there is a better example of what you are trying to say. Though in that case the child would barely be able to say "mommy"'; so it is mute in your comment. In keeping with the request with Kristian's desire, if you phrased the question along the ways of: "What do you think of these parents parading their their kids for photo opportunities to fit the agenda of the the left?" would be more fitting of the intent of the thread, than your recent comments. Respectively yours, Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd thacker Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 What's wrong with indoctrinating kids against war? Perhaps we should have tried that much earlier (along with indoctrinating them against idiocy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 my comments were offered in a respectful tone. Doug, don't make this thread about name calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Chip. Your comments are thoughtful, but when I looked at the juxtaposition of the Socialist Worker (a Communist newspaper) with the small child below, with a fearful look on his face, the first thought I had was "Indoctrination". Kristian's second picture, with the little girl carrying a sign dealing with issues that she cannot possibly understand says the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Eliot, Do you have children? I have a 3 and 5 year old boys. We do not have the cables and seldom do we watch television so their exposure to the news are extremely limited. But it happened they saw some pictures in a magazine or on TV of wounded or dead bodies, and they would ask Why is the man lying in the ground? Why is the girl at the hospital? Etc ... Well you have to tell them a story and they understand it and they understand it it is not something normal, natural. After September eleven, when he was 4 year old, he would ask why the plane hit the tower? Why the pilot was angry? etc ... Children are not like animals: they observe the world around them and they can understand things...later on they will be mature enough to make their own judgement, but do not talk about endoctrinment....because endoctrinment is what you can see on the US news media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Eliot wrote: "Chip. Your comments are thoughtful, but when I looked at the juxtaposition of the Socialist Worker (a Communist newspaper) with the small child below, with a fearful look on his face, the first thought I had was "Indoctrination". Kristian's second picture, with the little girl carrying a sign dealing with issues that she cannot possibly understand says the same thing." My response: In regards to the first picture. What caught my eye of the poster was the main content. Not that it was the Socialist Workers that was behind the poster. To me that only adds "future" context of the image. As to the child, I see a completive look. One of a child that is justing trying to understand the circumstances that brought them their; or maybe a look of "all knowing". As if to say. "What do you think?". In the second image you mentioned I see some forces at work here. The "mother" who is standoffish yet has a sense of pride in her stance. The child on the other-hand is pushing herself forward. Maybe trying to be noticed? Or the way the two "merge" or "blend" together shows the purposefulness or ambiguity that the anti-war message has. But in the end you show what we bring to each interpretation of a photograph. My challenge to others: How do you see these two images? try to keep the discussion to to photographic or general "political" comments. To Kristian: It was only after Eliot's comments that I was forced to view again your two images. Let me say that you do have an eye at capturing the present. Regardless of the motives of your images. May future generations have the opportunity to explore the depth of some of your images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Samir, You have said better than most could about the realities of being a child today. When Eliot and I were children (I am 45) in some ways life was more innocent. Even when i was in high school the realism of the day was "Towering Inferno". Today the images that show the reality of death are the norm in movies. And what they don't get through TV or movies they get through the internet. It has been said that the war in Iraq will bring about a different perspective that will forever change how people feel about war. Even back in the first Iraqi war the internet did not have the hold on people as it does today. Witness the varied world-wide opinion that has been told here in the Leica Forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristian dowling Posted March 25, 2003 Author Share Posted March 25, 2003 We're all mates :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd thacker Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 <I>Doug, don't make this thread about name calling.</I><P> What does idiocy have to do with you, Eliot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Doug. Give it a rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristian dowling Posted March 25, 2003 Author Share Posted March 25, 2003 Ahhh, rest is good...snorrrrr """"" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Doug, I understood your comment. I know (or at least hope) that you were not "baiting" or "attacking" any one person. In the couple of protests that I have been to so far; I have seen more children than I would have thought. Some were children of "radical" parents, but many more were children of the average family. Riding into the city for the January protest, I witnessed parents that were talking about why they were going, and what they were going to see. I think that they were looking at this as a living history lesson. About what democracy is about. For not since the '70's has there been an issue that made people feel so strongly, one way or another. Maybe it is a benefit of the horrors of 9-11. That day was a wake-up call for America. It will hopefully be the only horrific event for these young people lives. As such these children that we witness in images like these are the hope for the world. That is what I see in the face of the child in the main picture here. In fairness to Eliot, I hope that the parents will allow the children to develop their own beliefs. The more one looks at an image, more seems to come out. In reflecting on the image as I write this, I just noticed how weathered the hands of the adults are. They are in stark contrast to the smoothness, cleanness of the child. We are also are asked to make judgments on the people holding the sign. The sign was provided by the SW's. But in having been to a couple of protests, I know that not all protesters support the organizations of the signs they carry. They support the message the sign is meant to convey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas k. Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 "My intention of this thread, was similar to NO WORDS, but I wanted people to comment- within reason. Although, that term is pretty broad. I guess I should have stipulated that, but I don't like dictating and talking to people as if they are children." So you were trying to create a thread similar to NO WORDS, but with words that are to your own liking (i.e., "within reason")? Why didn't you just tell us, in the initial posting, exactly what responses you'd like? (e.g., "Nice shot, mate!") so that you won't be bothered by people with thoughts of their own? It sure sounds like you DO like "dictating and talking to people as if they are children." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristian dowling Posted March 25, 2003 Author Share Posted March 25, 2003 Douglas, didn't you get any last night? It sounds to me that you are trying to bait me into something I couldn't care for, so be upset over silly words and technicalities, but I'm not playing that game thanks. I've got better things to do. Like my images, hate my images....I don't really care. Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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