processing/converting to B&W in LightRoom

[httpwww.photo.netbarry]

1 hour ago, digitaldog said:

Your caveat is rather unclear. All the edits here, as we've discussed are parametric. They are proprietary. Raws are read only. Lightroom has to send Sliver Efex or anything else, a rendered image (a TIFF, JPEG, PSD), or maybe, maybe a linear DNG. The "original" file is raw so what are you proposing and warning us what? 

A "new photo file" has to be produced to move edits from LR to anything outside LR (expect ACR, they share the same engine and parametric effects). 

Do you have and use Lightroom Classic? 

That's how I understand it as well. The underlying file doesn't go anywhere nor is it altered.

When you send a file to another program, LR generates a new file in whatever format you choose from its menu. The programs that you choose to be an external editor receives the new file, which when you finish with it cane be saved back to LR, but it will save as its own file, which is then subject to its own non-destructive further editing in LR, but from the new file, not the original raw. If after doing all that you were to check the folder where you have LR store your images, you will see two files with the same name but different extensions ie blah blah.raw and blah blah.tif etc. Does that make sense?

I'm guessing what Alan may be referring to is once you bring the new file back into LR, should you want to send it back out to an external editing program LR will give you choices to send the original (of the externally edited not the original raw) or a copy with the adjustments you've made, or a copy without. The original raw file is still and always untouched.

 

[paddler4]

I think what may be the issue here is that in some cases, Lightroom will give you the option of sending the new file to an external editor with or without Lightroom's edits. 

This is a key issue if you decide to go back to Photoshop a second time--not a great habit, but sometimes necessary. In that case, if you want photoshop to open the PSD or TIF with layers, you have to tell LR to open it without (subsequent) LR edits.

[AlanKlein]

2 hours ago, paddler4 said:

I think what may be the issue here is that in some cases, Lightroom will give you the option of sending the new file to an external editor with or without Lightroom's edits. 

This is a key issue if you decide to go back to Photoshop a second time--not a great habit, but sometimes necessary. In that case, if you want photoshop to open the PSD or TIF with layers, you have to tell LR to open it without (subsequent) LR edits.

I no longer have Silver Efex to check since I replaced my computer recently.  But I just tried it going from LR to PS Elements for additional edits which should give the same options.  What you mentioned is one issue. The checked selection.  But notice the third selection.  I never tried it but it seems to edit the original file.  Can anyone explain what it does.  This is Lightroom license purchased Version 6.1.4  (Classic?)

[digitaldog]

Alan's caveats are "Klein" confusions. 🤪

There is one Lightroom Classic caveat and it concerns Layers but more about that later. 

Let's look at how Lightroom Classic and most parametric editors really work. Let's do so with rendered images (TIFFs, JPEGs, PSDs, PSB) to make it clear; this includes such documents as well as raws. Let's make a Photoshop document that is 5x5 pixels (25 pixels), 8-bit per color, sRGB, and all 25 pixels are RGB 50/50/50. Let’s save it to the desktop. Let's import it into Lightroom Classic. The catalog now knows the document's location. It builds a few previews (they differ in type and size depending on a number of factors that don't apply to this discussion). We have some tool in Lightroom Classic to edit ONE pixel, so instead of RGB 50/50/50, it is now 60/60/60. We zoom in and can see yes, one pixel is lighter than all the others. 

We know open that document in Photoshop (or anywhere we could). What we see is all 25 pixels are the same. There is no one pixel that differs from the others. WFT? Well, of course, the edit is parametric! It wasn't rendered into a NEW document! We can do this a number of ways in LR (Export, in which case the color space, bit depth, and even number of pixels can be changed), we can use Edit in Photoshop, we can use Edit in (an external editor). Now the fun part. Do we open the original just as we did a minute ago, or use the LR edits? The latter renders the parametric edits with the original data. Say we open it in Photoshop with the rendering. Now what? Well, until we save it (or use Save As...) it's not really a document. We can use the Export command and maintain the exact same attributes (number of pixels, bit depth, color space) and save off a JPEG from the TIFF or whatever; the new edit is now rendered in the new document. (BTW, round tripping from LR to PS always Save, not Save As...). 

Let's say we use the Edit in External Editor (Alan's Silver Efex and his screen capture that isn't a caveat but simply an option the user should understand).  Do you want the original (the desktop saved document) to be sent for editing to this product OR do you want the virtual document that has the one pixel edit sent to the product? This will only be an option IF Lightroom Classic detects a parametric edit. That document with the pixel edit doesn't exist. It is virtual. LR will render it with the edit and now send it to Silver Efex and after one 'saves' there, it will be a non-virtual document that is now 'stored' in the Catalog (database/DAM). Nothing to worry about, no caveat, simply an option the user should attempt to understand (which image do you want to be sent where?). 

The real caveat has to do with layers. You have this test document above, but now it has layers. You mistakenly believe, like Joe, that the one edit is non-destructive because you altered the one pixel on its own layer. Now it is cataloged in LR, and you want to send it to Efex. Well, now you are provided the option Alan shows, you want to edit WITH Lightroom Adjustments. Boom; the layer is flattened (destructive edit) just to apply the 60/60/60 edit of one pixel. It gets rendered and sent to Efex. Based upon the preferences for bit depth, color space etc.

So the question becomes, what to do with layers? The answer for me is to draw a line in the sand when doing parametric edits and pixel edits. Going full circle to this "debate" where Joe and maybe others don't feel it's necessary to understand the mammoth difference between pixel editing and parametric editing! I do all parametric editing, and when I am ready to render and create layers or do pixel editing, I'm done doing parametric editing.

BTW, going parametric from LR to Adobe Camera Raw isn't an issue; they use the same engine and edit IF (real caveat) they are on version parity. Also, be aware when you use Edit in Photoshop from LR, it is Adobe Camera Raw that renders the edits, NOT LR! Again, they should be on version parity which is the case if you subscribe to the two products. If the two are not on version parity, LR will pop a dialog telling you this and allow LR to render and send to Photoshop. Newer features in LR that don't exist in Adobe Camera Raw will not be applied! 

The parametric edits are text (metadata), and they are stored in the document (DNG, TIFF, PSD, JPEG) and/or the LR catalog. If you open the image with the 60/60/60 edit from a TIFF from LR in anything but LR or Adobe Camera Raw that has this edit, it will not appear, but the edit is there. The edit you see in LR/ACR is shown in its preview. But it isn’t a pixel edit. Not until it is rendered by the engine that created it. Make a parametric edit in Capture One, open it in Adobe Camera Raw or LR; you will not see it. It is a proprietary edit not understood outside its ecosystem.

 

[digitaldog]

 Some clarifications of above: 

 "Well, until we save it (or use Save As...) it's not really a document. (BTW, round tripping from LR to PS always Save, not Save As...)"

You can of course use Save As... but if you expect LR to catalog the location of the save, always use Save. In an external editor, this may differ but Save should again allow LR to know the location next to the original and catalog it. 

"LR will render it with the edit and now send it to Silver Efex and after one 'saves' there, it will be a non-virtual document that is now 'stored' in the Catalog"

NO images are stored IN a catalog hence the quotes. Their location, the previews, edits and more are stored in the catalog. Which is why anything you can do from outside LR (rename documents, move them, delete them, copy them) should always be done inside LR which can provide the same options. 

Not mentioned with respect to Alan's screen capture: Edit a Copy. I'd hope that option is obvious with respect to the other two options. 

[AlanKlein]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.  What does the third option Edit Original do? 

[digitaldog]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:07 PM, AlanKlein said:

What does the third option Edit Original do? 

Edits the original. 

[digitaldog]

And:

https://helpx.adobe.com/in/lightroom-classic/help/image-tone-color.html

Last updated on 24 Jan 2023

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