dieter_skagen Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 After reading the post about Leica M improvement...I got to thinking about the viewfinder framelines...I have been working profesionally with my M6 and M4P for as long as I've had the cameras (Twenty years), and I could never get why the framelines appear as they do in the viewfinder...why they are not a connected rectangle rather than broken up at the corners or simply just corners...My way of working has boiled down to the use only two lenses...a 28mm (with a finder) on one body, and 50mm on the other, so its less of a factor for me. I know everybody gets used to and deals with the limitations and peculiarities of their gear, but I am wondering why they are designed this way...there must be an actual reason for it...it would be rediculous otherwise. D.Skagen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanford Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 My guess - the actual photo on film is so far off from what you see in the viewfinder that the marks are only meant as a rough guide. I think the Contax G2 does a much better job in this respect because the view moves down and to the right and shrinks to reflect the change in focal length as you focus closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_king1 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 <b>Related question?</b> <br> I'd like to tack on a related question, if y'all don't mind. It occurs to me that for the year and a half I've been using an M6TTL (primarily as my only camera) I have never used the frameline preview lever. Is this a feature that a lot of you *do* use frequently? <br> I sure wish it somehow were able to toggle a 1.25x view, instead....Thnx, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolfe_tessem Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dieter, It sounds like you need an M3 :-). One of the disappointments to me in the MP announcment was that Leica didn't reinstate the superior framelines of the M3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Many people find the preview lever very handy for checking which lens to put on the camera. I've been using Leicas so damned long that I never bother with the preview lever. From 21 to 180 (the 180 on a 'flex) I know what'll be in the picture. The exception is I never could see "28" so I finally gave up and sold it. Now I'm learning the 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Preview is extremely useful - particularly for the 90 and 135 frames. I think if they were complete lines then it would obstruct the image too much when using the wider lens. I am sure this is why it is the way it is but most of us agree that M3/M2 approach is nicest, but this way is only for three lenses - they way it is right now even with all its defects (idiosyncracies) at least means there is no confusion over which frame is which. Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bert_keuken2 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 The framelines are cut-outs in two very thin metal masks (0.06 mm and 0.08 mm thick). A connected rectangle is impossible to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieter_skagen Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 I'm with Al on this. Although as I said, I (seriously) only use the 28mm and the 50mm for my style of working, the use of frameline pre-view is and would be of limited importance for me, especially since for me lens choice is about perspective not cropping...its why I use the 28mm finder (with its peculiarities) always with my 28mm. Converging lines become more of a statment making tool than on a 50 or longer. Over twenty years I have obviously learned how to use the framing characteristics of my gear, but it does seem odd the way the framelines appear in the frame as broken...the 90 frame seems especially bizarre, but then I never use it. Hmmmm...M3...I have heard of a person in Toronto who will put an M3 finder in any M4P or M6 camera, thus giving a better (larger) 50mm framing...I have thought about doing this...I think he is the same guy who makes the rapid winder. I'm thinking to replace my 20 year old M6 with either an M6 or MP(.58 VF) and then have this M3 finder mod done to my M4P...and that would be about all I would change in my system...unless of course Leica came out with a ASPH 50mm Summilux. S.Skagen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieter_skagen Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 BTW how do you spell Peculiar? its one english word I can never get...I think I will look at an M3 just for interest...it might be something for me...and thanks Bert for the scientific respnonse...I knew there must be a technical reason... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffrey_frey Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 As done in the Canon 7. Much less confusing than having all those frames at once and trying to remember which one applies to the lens you're using. Of course if you use the same lens all the time this is moot, but for more casual shooters. . . . Jeffrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolfe_tessem Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dieter, Putting an M3 finder in a later camera is very doable, but you have to find the M3 finder to do it with, as they are no longer available from Leica. In fact, if you send your M3 in to Leica and it needs a new finder, they install the M6J (high mag) finder. The reason I know this is that I'm currently having an M3 finder installed in an MDa, which is the finderless camera that in other respects is essentially an M4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_bender Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 because they are slits in a piece of plastic. If you connect them, the insides will fall out. In viewfinders with constant, non-switching framelines, those are "painted" on glass, and can describe the area completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dford Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Rather then a preview lever, a lever that introduces the 1.25 viewfinder magnification automatically on the .58 and .72 variants. Steve you're a Genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug_hagerman Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 I think it's a bit more complicated that just 100% backwards and forwards compatibility. The non-metered cameras don't need a meter display, so they could possibly accept any finder. The metered cameras need a place for the diodes or pointer (M5). The framing masks in the early cameras were parallel with the front of the body, but in the M6 (and possibly M5--I'm not sure) have a redesigned system that has the masks at about a 45 degree angle to the body. So I don't think you could put an M3 finder into an M6 unless you were willing to lose the metering, in which case you might as well get an M4. And I don't think you could modify the M6 finder to have a fixed 50mm frame in it, either. I do think there is a business opportunity for someone who is willing to put in custom combinations of lines. For example, I don't have a 75mm lens, so that set of lines is useless to me. But I would like to see the 24mm lines, which would fit into my 0.58 finder. So if someone could modify my camera to have 29+90, 50+24, and 35 lines, I'd be interested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_horn Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dieter- Somewhere in the archives, you will find a very good report on why Leica combined certain framelines. It is for a very good reason. (I can't remember the reasons, however.) What I would like to see, is an improved, more prominent, 75mm frameline; the 4 little corner nibs are insufficient and I tend to switch over to the 50mm, thus cutting off heads & feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolfe_tessem Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Doug, Any competent Leica repairperson such as DAG or Sherry can eliminate unwanted frame lines for you. I'll probably have the 75mm set scrubbed on at least one body when it goes in for a CLA. Be aware that, once done, it is reversible but not easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yochin Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dear Dieter,<br><br> <a href="http://www.bartleby.com/61/25/P0142500.html">peculiar</a>: it comes from the Middle English "peculier" meaning "personal", which comes from the Latin "pecliris", which is derived from "peclium", meaning "private property".<br><br> As to the way the lines appear: they're cutouts, so a connected rectangle would entail either some sort of transparent glass or plastic to keep the cutout lines together and a center box blocked out or else it would be just one big bright rectangle.<br><br> As to usefulness: I use the frameline lever when I'm using a 40mm lens because it always brings up the 50mm frame lines and they're always too tight for this lens, so it does have its uses.<br><br> From David Li. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 I think that the pairs were chosen so you wouldn't confuse which of the two visible lines to use. The widest lens of the pair, hood on or extended, more or less intersects the corner of the frame line. The longer lens very noticeably blocks a fair portion of the wider frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_piper2 Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Dieter: as mentioned - the MAIN reason for the gaps is that the framelines are a 'stencil' cut in a black background - the dark gaps are where the inside of the stencil connects to the outside. There are also gaps in metered bodies for the red diodes - subtle ones in the 'classic' - really obnoxious ones (IMHO) in the ttl/7 bodies. If you operate the frameline selector lever very slowly you can see a SECOND mask sliding diagonally behind the main mask - alternately revealing and hiding the actual frame lines. If you compare the various models you begin to see what Leica is doing as they added frames to the M3/M2's original sets of 3. They generally make the long-lens frames more 'minimalist' to reduce the intrusiveness when two frames appear together. The M3 through M4-2 had an 8-part box for the 90mm frame that defined the corners very clearly - but once they added the 28 frame in the M4-P they made the 90 frame into a simpler, but less complete, 4-part frame that leaves out the corners, but is presumably not quite as distracting as the original design when using a 28 lens. When the 75 frame was first installed, in the M4-P, it was VERY minimalist - 4 tiny corners like the 135 frame. In the M6 (at least since my 1988 body) the 75 frames have 4 additional 'parts' and bigger corners. If I used a 50 I'd prefer the M4-P layout; if I used a 75 I'd prefer the M6 et seq. layout. Since I don't use either it's a non-issue. The 50/75 frames CAN be confusing/distracting (OTHO at infinity the 50 frames are probably more accurate for the 75 than for the 50!) But do folks really confuse the 90/28 and 135/35 frames?! I get vague at times, but generally I DO know if I'm shooting with a telephoto or a wide-angle! Especially since the teles stick into the viewfinder and are easy to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F. Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Well, I'll add my reconstruction of Leitz's thinking on frameline pairing. The M3 was first, with 50, 90, and 135 frames. When the M2 (35, 50, & 90) was introduced, it was necessary to use one of the existing cam lengths to activate the new 35mm frame. But which one? The 50 and 90 frames were shared with the M3, and thus already spoken for. However, the M2 had no 135mm frame; thus this tab could do double-duty as the 35mm frame activator on the M2, while remaining as the 135mm cam on the M3. So far, the frames weren't paired. They still came in one at a time. Enter the M4, with its four frames: 35 through 135, inclusive. Do you see why the 35mm and 135mm had to be paired? They are operated by the same bayonet tab. Now comes the M4P, with six frames. It might have been nice if they could have paired the new 28mm and 75mm frames together. But they couldn't do that, because it would require a non-existent fourth frame selector position. Even if they could have, it would require the 50 and 90 to be paired; and they can't be, because they already have their own separate selector cam lengths. So the 28 had to piggy-back with the 90, and there was no choice but to pair the 75 with the 50. So that's how decisions that were made very early, predetermined all future frame pairings. As I see it, at least . . . Just my thoughts on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieter_skagen Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 Finally I am getting it...quite interesting actually for someone like myself who is a bit slow mechanically. I am really thinking about putting an M3 finder in my M4P if I can find a finder. The guys name who does or did these mods is Tom Abrahmson or something like that, but my colleague who had this done with his M4P doesnt have a contact number for him anymore...maybe someone does and can post it here. Maybe an M3 body is the answer but I dont know how it differs from the M4P so I would have to have in front of me to assess that possibility. Or a 50 accessory finder...do they exist? Thanks again for all the discussion, really very enlightening. D.Skagen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giles_poilu Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Dieter, call DAG camera - Don is the master of modifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johann_fuller Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 How much bigger are the M3 50 frames than the ones on my M6 - in terms of film coverage -not just how they appear in the VF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F. Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Johann: At a distance of about 20 feet, my M6 covers about 10 or 11 inches less of the width of the far wall that the M3 50mm framelines cover. that's about 11 inches out of 110 inches; so it's about 10 percent less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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