Which 35mm lens for NIKON F6 and D610 ?

[Jean-Claude]

Nikon F6, 35mm AFD at f8, HP5 (yesterday)

[orsetto]

Nikon F6, 35mm AFD at f8, HP5 (yesterday)

 

Very nice! Demonstrating once again that digital sensors + 100% viewing from 12" away are the worst things that ever happened to half the decent, usable older lenses floating around out there. The 35/2 AFD is perfectly fine for shots like this: exactly what it was designed for. Not wall sized landscapes, not precision architecture- but people pics i.e. PJ work. The "mediocre" little 35/2 AFD still has a niche even today for the non- perfectionist: its tiny, weighs nothing, and AFs quicker than any comparable superior modern lens.. Bitching about "glaringly obvious" LoCA and edge softness (that no viewer will notice) seems petty if it nails your shot at a fraction the price of "better" lenses. If nothing else, it makes a good AF backup lens to a nicer MF like the Zeiss 35/2 Distagon or Samyang 35/1.4. Finding a used Nikkor 35/2 AFD without recurring aperture blade issues can be difficult: if you already own a "good" copy, it may be worth holding on to after you acquire a newer, better 35mm.

[Jean-Claude]

Very nice! Demonstrating once again that digital sensors + 100% viewing from 12" away are the worst things that ever happened to half the decent, usable older lenses floating around out there. The 35/2 AFD is perfectly fine for shots like this: exactly what it was designed for. Not wall sized landscapes, not precision architecture- but people pics i.e. PJ work. The "mediocre" little 35/2 AFD still has a niche even today for the non- perfectionist: its tiny, weighs nothing, and AFs quicker than any comparable superior modern lens.. Bitching about "glaringly obvious" LoCA and edge softness (that no viewer will notice) seems petty if it nails your shot at a fraction the price of "better" lenses. If nothing else, it makes a good AF backup lens to a nicer MF like the Zeiss 35/2 Distagon or Samyang 35/1.4. Finding a used Nikkor 35/2 AFD without recurring aperture blade issues can be difficult: if you already own a "good" copy, it may be worth holding on to after you acquire a newer, better 35mm.

 

I posted this picture made yesterday pm to show you what I espect from a 35 mm lens. I can’t see anything wrong here. At short distances like this one I rarerly use a f stop below 5.6.

[mike_halliwell]

This correction is memorised inside the body but logically this only concerns my old lens, it possibly could not affect a new lens from another brand?

No, you just gotta 'correct' your new Tamron lens...just the same way you did before with your 35mm AFD.

[Jean-Claude]

No, you just gotta 'correct' your new Tamron lens...just the same way you did before with your 35mm AFD.

 

My other Nikon lenses 50, 85, 105 and 135 are not corrected’ they focus very well. I just had issues wth the 35mm.

 

Why woul I need to adjust new lenses?

[mike_halliwell]

All optical stuff is built to a tolerance, so a +/- variation.

 

They often are very small differences, but every now and again they act cumulatively.

 

So, say your body is -5 and most of your current lenses are around +3, total = -2, so pretty invisible.

 

However, say your 35mm is -5 also, total = -10, which is noticable.

 

The new or old doesn't really matter, sure they can change throughout their life with knocks and bangs, but they can also be off straight out of the box.

 

Most shooters I know have had a new lens or 2 that needed between -8 and +10 new out of the box on one camera body. However, it's not the same on their other body!

 

I think sample variation hasn't changed much over the years but the ability to 'see' it has, with a combination of very high resolution sensors and pixel peeping!

[Jean-Claude]

All optical stuff is built to a tolerance, so a +/- variation.

 

They often are very small differences, but every now and again they act cumulatively.

 

So, say your body is -5 and most of your current lenses are around +3, total = -2, so pretty invisible.

 

However, say your 35mm is -5 also, total = -10, which is noticable.

 

The new or old doesn't really matter, sure they can change throughout their life with knocks and bangs, but they can also be off straight out of the box.

 

Most shooters I know have had a new lens or 2 that needed between -8 and +10 new out of the box on one camera body. However, it's not the same on their other body!

 

I think sample variation hasn't changed much over the years but the ability to 'see' it has, with a combination of very high resolution sensors and pixel peeping!

 

Now I get a visible picture! Thank you.

 

My 35mm is adjusted -14.

 

The Tamron I tried in the shop last Saturday had a back focus at f1.4. Reading you, that's why I didn't buy it. Now, I understand that either both photographers couldn't focus properly and/or the lens need to be adjusted to my D610. Correct?

[mike_halliwell]

Yes!

 

LV focusing isn't effected by any sort of correction, so theoretically if it can achieve good sharpness in LV AF, it should be able to be corrected for conventional AF unless it's off by more than the +/- 20 Nikon allows.

 

-14 is quite a bit, but not unheard of...;)

 

Although it has no effect of actual image focus, it's always good to have the viewfinder diopter set very accurately for your own eyesight. It certainly make a lot of difference is you try to MF a lens.

[ben_hutcherson]

With focus tweaking-

 

Something else to consider is that in many ways, digital is a much more unforgiving medium than film. For starters, makers have ALWAYS fought with film flatness in roll films. High end 35mm cameras tend to be about as good as you'll find, but none the less they're probably not perfect. That's as opposed to a silicon wafer topped with a stack of glass filters, which are perfectly flat.

 

Second, a 24mp FX sensor has at least as much resolution-and probably more-than any even a fine grained slide film, and realistically the only thing that MIGHT be able to better it is something like Tech Pan or microfilm. Even back in the heyday of film, most people didn't regularly shoot Tech Pan and pull out a microscope to look at it.

 

By contrast, with digital we can load the file into our computer and do the digital equivalent of just that by zooming in to 100%. A 24mp FX sensor will reveal a lot of lens imperfections and show things like focus error that would be difficult to see on an ASA 50 or 100 slide film, much less ASA 400 print film.

 

Phase detect focus in Nikons(and pretty much all other SLRs/DSLRs) depends on several things being in perfect alignment to work correctly. The primary reflex mirror has to rest in the correct position, as does the secondary mirror behind it that bounces light down into the lenses/CCD array of the AF module(located on the bottom of the mirror box). There are a couple of places there where tolerances can allow the focus to be off, and it's only to be expected that it would affect different lenses differently.

 

This is also why AF on the sensor, or even live view manual focus, is inherently more accurate than focusing on a focusing screen or using below-the-mirror phase detect.

[Jean-Claude]

Yes!

 

LV focusing isn't effected by any sort of correction, so theoretically if it can achieve good sharpness in LV AF, it should be able to be corrected for conventional AF unless it's off by more than the +/- 20 Nikon allows.

 

-14 is quite a bit, but not unheard of...;)

 

Although it has no effect of actual image focus, it's always good to have the viewfinder diopter set very accurately for your own eyesight. It certainly make a lot of difference is you try to MF a lens.

 

Thank you.

 

Before I had my 35mm ajusted I saw too often the eyes out of focus when they appeared on the computer. Blurred eyes are terrible.

 

This means that I have to go back to the shop and try the Tamron again but taking 1st my -14 lens correction out of the camera. This "should" allow proper focused images at f1.4.

[Dieter Schaefer]

1st my -14 lens correction out of the camera

The AF fine-tune lens corrections are linked to the lens - your -14 for your 35/2 has no effect when the Tamron 35/1.8VC is mounted. When testing a lens, always use live view to determine the "best" focus the camera/lens combo can achieve - then see if phase-detect AF (via viewfinder) can match that result. If not, then the lens will need AF fine tune. The only fixed-focal length lens that I determined to need AF fine tune will checking it out in the store was the Sigma 24/1.4 - it only took a few minutes to determine the correct setting (which luckily did turn out to be focus-distant independent). For my (manual focus) IRIX 15mm, the distance scale on the lens does not agree at all with the "green dot" in the viewfinder - the issue was quickly resolved by dialing in some AF fine tune parameter (though the lens itself offers means for a correct calibration too).

[Jean-Claude]

So, I should go back to the shop and check through Live View is the subject is very sharp when using f1.4 and if not, it means that I should buy the lens (???) and once at home, try to fix the settings on my camera and hope I will ever get a proper focus?

[Dieter Schaefer]

First and foremost, checking an f/1.8 lens at f/1.4 isn't quite possible :)

 

Second, yes, I would turn AF fine tune off - just to avoid the odd case that the camera recognizes the Tamron as the Nikon lens you own.

 

Third - if I was faced with a situation like yours (backfocus of a lens right out of the box) my first question would be whether the store has another copy of the lens - and then I try that one. And another, if necessary.

 

If there isn't another one to be had, then I would attempt a cursory AF fine tune - just to see how far out the lens is. This is where things get a bit tricky - use something that doesn't move - taking pictures of another person isn't the best way to make AF fine tune determinations. Also, just looking at the back LCD isn't a reliable source of information either - the resolution is often too low once one zooms in and everything looks soft and OOF. Ideally, such a test would be performed with the camera on a tripod and a suitable focus target perfectly aligned parallel with the camera sensor (read this on how to properly do focus calibration: https://photographylife.com/how-to-calibrate-lenses); doing a test with the camera handheld at best allows for some cursory determination of the AF fine tune parameter. In addition, the test should be performed at a focus distance that you normally would use with that lens (or between 25x and 50x the focal length (that's roughly between 4 and 6 feet for a 35mm lens)).

 

Comparing images taken with live view and via "viewfinder AF" while hand-holding the camera is fraught with problems - the focus distance will most likely change though it should be good enough for a cursory determination of the magnitude of the fine tuning needed. The live view image just serves as a visual aid of what "correct" focus looks like. If you can stick the camera on a tripod, then one way to see how far out the AF is goes as follows - it makes use of the green dot focus confirmation in the viewfinder (you don't even have to take pictures). The only requirement is that the camera is set up for back-button focus as you do not want the camera to refocus when you half-press the shutter release button.

- determine focus with live view. This step is critical - if you don't nail focus with live view the remainder of the procedure does not work properly and may result in erroneous parameters.

- turn live view off, look through the viewfinder and half-press the shutter release. Look at the focus confirmation - if the green dot is lit, you're golden (or at least very close). If one of arrows and the green dot flickers, your AF is off a little. If only an arrow is visible, AF is way off.

- go into the menu, turn AF fine tune ON and change the parameter (I usually go in steps of 5). With the new setting, half-press the shutter button again to activate focus confirmation - determine whether or not you are going the right direction and if things improve.

- repeat the above step until you have managed to get the green dot lit, then redo the procedure around that value in steps of 1. The green dot will likely stay lit for a range of 2 or 3 values, just pick the middle one if the green dot stays lit for an odd number of values or either one of center if it stays lit for an even number of AF fine tune parameters. - Repeat the value determination three to five times

- Congratulations, you just calibrated focus for your lens (at least for one focus distance); check whether or not the AF fine tune parameter works at different distances (take some pictures wide open in the store or just outside). If there is a focus distance dependence, then calibration of the lens via the USB dock is the only option - only you can decide if the tedious procedure is worth it or not.

 

Now, if I were to determine that the lens needs a parameter beyond 20 - then obviously, it can't be calibrated on your camera and there's no reason to buy it. Personally, I would reject anything that needs more than 15 as I am afraid that over time it may drift into the "can't be calibrated territory"). If the AF fine tune parameter thus determined (either via the green dot method or a more crude hand-held procedure) is within my limits, I would buy the lens, take it home and test it thoroughly, evaluating images on the computer monitor and not the camera's back LCD. Every store should have a return policy (14-30 days) giving you ample time to determine if the lens is worth keeping or not.

 

Whether the lens then behaves on the F6 is anyone's guess. Though thanks to the lens USB dock, there's at least a chance to get it to work (while hopefully continue to function properly on the D610). That's one advantage of sticking with Nikon glass - you can always send camera and lens to Nikon for adjustment.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Dieter Schaefer

[Jean-Claude]

First and foremost, checking an f/1.8 lens at f/1.4 isn't quite possible :)

 

Second, yes, I would turn AF fine tune off - just to avoid the odd case that the camera recognizes the Tamron as the Nikon lens you own.

 

Third - if I was faced with a situation like yours (backfocus of a lens right out of the box) my first question would be whether the store has another copy of the lens - and then I try that one. And another, if necessary.

 

If there isn't another one to be had, then I would attempt a cursory AF fine tune - just to see how far out the lens is. This is where things get a bit tricky - use something that doesn't move - taking pictures of another person isn't the best way to make AF fine tune determinations. Also, just looking at the back LCD isn't a reliable source of information either - the resolution is often too low once one zooms in and everything looks soft and OOF. Ideally, such a test would be performed with the camera on a tripod and a suitable focus target perfectly aligned parallel with the camera sensor (read this on how to properly do focus calibration: https://photographylife.com/how-to-calibrate-lenses); doing a test with the camera handheld at best allows for some cursory determination of the AF fine tune parameter. In addition, the test should be performed at a focus distance that you normally would use with that lens (or between 25x and 50x the focal length (that's roughly between 4 and 6 feet for a 35mm lens)).

 

Comparing images taken with live view and via "viewfinder AF" while hand-holding the camera is fraught with problems - the focus distance will most likely change though it should be good enough for a cursory determination of the magnitude of the fine tuning needed. The live view image just serves as a visual aid of what "correct" focus looks like. If you can stick the camera on a tripod, then one way to see how far out the AF is goes as follows - it makes use of the green dot focus confirmation in the viewfinder (you don't even have to take pictures). The only requirement is that the camera is set up for back-button focus as you do not want the camera to refocus when you half-press the shutter release button.

- determine focus with live view. This step is critical - if you don't nail focus with live view the remainder of the procedure does not work properly and may result in erroneous parameters.

- turn live view off, look through the viewfinder and half-press the shutter release. Look at the focus confirmation - if the green dot is lit, you're golden (or at least very close). If one of arrows and the green dot flickers, your AF is off a little. If only an arrow is visible, AF is way off.

- go into the menu, turn AF fine tune ON and change the parameter (I usually go in steps of 5). With the new setting, half-press the shutter button again to activate focus confirmation - determine whether or not you are going the right direction and if things improve.

- repeat the above step until you have managed to get the green dot lit, then redo the procedure around that value in steps of 1. The green dot will likely stay lit for a range of 2 or 3 values, just pick the middle one if the green dot stays lit for an odd number of values or either one of center if it stays lit for an even number of AF fine tune parameters. - Repeat the value determination three to five times

- Congratulations, you just calibrated focus for your lens (at least for one focus distance); check whether or not the AF fine tune parameter works at different distances (take some pictures wide open in the store or just outside). If there is a focus distance dependence, then calibration of the lens via the USB dock is the only option - only you can decide if the tedious procedure is worth it or not.

 

Now, if I were to determine that the lens needs a parameter beyond 20 - then obviously, it can't be calibrated on your camera and there's no reason to buy it. Personally, I would reject anything that needs more than 15 as I am afraid that over time it may drift into the "can't be calibrated territory"). If the AF fine tune parameter thus determined (either via the green dot method or a more crude hand-held procedure) is within my limits, I would buy the lens, take it home and test it thoroughly, evaluating images on the computer monitor and not the camera's back LCD. Every store should have a return policy (14-30 days) giving you ample time to determine if the lens is worth keeping or not.

 

Whether the lens then behaves on the F6 is anyone's guess. Though thanks to the lens USB dock, there's at least a chance to get it to work (while hopefully continue to function properly on the D610). That's one advantage of sticking with Nikon glass - you can always send camera and lens to Nikon for adjustment.

 

Let me first thank you for your time and very clear reply, very much appreciated.

 

Then, for your sense of humour. It is indeed not very easy to focus 1.4 with a lens that starts at f1.8:(No wonder I had no sharp pictures in the shop...

 

Your idea of trying another lens in the shop or even a 3rd one is smart, I didn( think about that. One point for you. Also good to know is the 20 parameter limitation, obviously.

Finally I didn't know about the green dot focusing method, will try it in the shop.

 

Last but not least: I discover that this Tamron 1.8 lens sells in the USA for 599$ (+/-500€) while the price here is 750€wich is 50%more. A scandal!

 

Thanks again and enjoy the winter sun wherever you live;)

[mike_halliwell]

while the price here is 750€wich is 50%more

Try here..

 

https://www.eglobalcentraluk.com/CBhGLS6WERbtLFD7SyB3.html

 

Have bought alot from them. Always good service.

[Andrew Garrard]

Dieter's approach is the one I use - fine-tuning with the dock is more tedious, and involves repeatedly taking the lens off the camera, which is why I wish lenses with docks instead just had USB ports on the side.

 

One heads-up: You do need to be in AF mode with back-button focus. If you put the camera into manual focus mode instead, you should still get the AF confirmation light turn on, but (IIRC) the tolerance is increased, so it'll report "in focus" less accurately. This appears to be a plan to make it "easier" to focus manual-focus lenses. (I hope that's not misinformation.) I'd not object to having a configurable option for how "in focus" something has to be - particularly with trap focus.

[Jean-Claude]

Try here..

 

https://www.eglobalcentraluk.com/CBhGLS6WERbtLFD7SyB3.html

 

Have bought alot from them. Always good service.

 

Thank you. Grey market I guess which means if any problems no Tamron warranty??

[mike_halliwell]

I'm not sure how Tamron treats 'grey' where you are?

[Jean-Claude]

I'm not sure how Tamron treats 'grey' where you are?

Grey market means that the seller is not allowed by the brand to distribute their items.

 

So, no brand warranty indépendant of the country you live in.

[Andrew Garrard]

Grey market means that the seller is not allowed by the brand to distribute their items.

 

So, no brand warranty indépendant of the country you live in.

 

However, I believe (if I correctly understood some corporate training) it is illegal under EU competition law to restrict servicing of items based on geography - I think Nikon UK (for example) couldn't differentiate themselves from Nikon US by refusing to service US products. Although I've only ever got one US lens serviced in the UK, and they may just not have noticed.

 

I'm not sure if this applies to warranties, it may just mean they can't refuse paid work based solely on the "ethnicity" of the product.

[Jean-Claude]

Wh

However, I believe (if I correctly understood some corporate training) it is illegal under EU competition law to restrict servicing of items based on geography - I think Nikon UK (for example) couldn't differentiate themselves from Nikon US by refusing to service US products. Although I've only ever got one US lens serviced in the UK, and they may just not have noticed.

 

I'm not sure if this applies to warranties, it may just mean they can't refuse paid work based solely on the "ethnicity" of the product.

what you write based on EU law ONLY concerns the official market’ not the grey market of course.

[Andrew Garrard]

What you write based on EU law ONLY concerns the official market’ not the grey market of course.

 

Well yes, but I think this means that Nikon can't differentiate their regional products by saying they'll only service items sold in the EU - I assume they can't tell a "grey market" item from one actually bought in another locale and brought to the EU. (I have a vague similar concern that were I ever to move to the US with my selection of EU Nikon year, would they service it, or would I have to ship it back?)

 

This assumes it's a grey market item that was just imported through a channel other than the EU distributors, though. If it fell off the back of a lorry and is actually an illegal (or, although I kind of boggle that this can exist, fake) item then you're on your own, but if it were actually they case that grey market items were actually illegal then I assume B&H et al. wouldn't sell them.

 

This is very much not my area of expertise, in as much as I have one.

[Jean-Claude]

Well yes, but I think this means that Nikon can't differentiate their regional products by saying they'll only service items sold in the EU - I assume they can't tell a "grey market" item from one actually bought in another locale and brought to the EU. (I have a vague similar concern that were I ever to move to the US with my selection of EU Nikon year, would they service it, or would I have to ship it back?)

 

This assumes it's a grey market item that was just imported through a channel other than the EU distributors, though. If it fell off the back of a lorry and is actually an illegal (or, although I kind of boggle that this can exist, fake) item then you're on your own, but if it were actually they case that grey market items were actually illegal then I assume B&H et al. wouldn't sell them.

 

This is very much not my area of expertise, in as much as I have one.

 

The serial number tells you where it comes from but maybe not grey or official market. What I know is that if you ever encounter a probleme with a photo item, the shops here will either send you to where you bought or charge you 50€ for administrative work, to pack and send it out for repair.

 

To avoid any problems I rather buy at a hard price from the official distributor.

[Andrew Garrard]

Interesting, Jean Claude. Nikon, as the manufacturer, possibly shouldn't be charging you extra, if I correctly understood my corporate training (I may well not); individual shops are probably another matter. Even so, I don't know whether an extra fifty euros constitutes regional protectionism (to the extent that a flat refusal to service no matter the cost would).

 

Generally, I've gone official as well. But I have to admit that it's probably cost me quite a lot of money over time.

[mike_halliwell]

Pretty much as we thought regarding Tamron 'grey' lenses..

 

Grey Imports