More useful than a new aspheric 50 mm?

[fran__ois_p._weill]

Dear friends,

 

I recently saw a message about the alleged logic to see Leica issue

a new aspheric version of one of their M series 50mm lenses.

 

I'm not so convinced it would really be necessary, as aspherical

elements are not necessary to obtain extraordinary results with so-

called normal focal length.

 

But there is one thing I consider missing in the modern range of

50mm lenses available: a modern version of the 50mm dual range

Summicron!...

 

I know rangefinder cameras are not specially devoted to macro-

photography but when trekking or simply having a walk it would be

very convenient not to have to carry another obviously less compact)

system if some close-ups are to be expected.

 

As for myself, carrying a complete medium format outfit as a

complement is something which really both shorten my range because

of the additional weight and impair considerably my mobility when

shooting.

 

Most of the time you won't have the need for an important

magnification but the x 0.5 or so the old dual range offered was

really a bonus.

 

So here is my suggestion: with the current knowledge in optics, it

would certainly be easy to revive the dual range, whether as a 50mm

or may be as a compact f/2 or f/2.8 75mm with a f/32 minimum

aperture as an alternative to the stellar but voluminous and very

expensive 75mm f/1.4.

 

What do you think about this idea ?

 

François P. WEILL

[lucien1]

François,

 

I will much prefer to see an Asph (Apo?) Summilux 50/1,4 (as good as the Summicron @ f2) than a new Dual Range.

 

The original DR was focusing to 1m or betweenn 0,88m-0,48m. It was not possible to focus between 1m and 0,89m.

 

The current Summilux and Summicron are focusing to 0,70m.

 

It's enough in my view.

 

Lucien

[joel_matherson]

I have always wanted a 50mm f3.5 micro nikkor for rangefinders but they are so overpriced and when the Voigtlander 50mm f3.5 Heliar came out the first thing that came to mind was how wonderful it would be to have the optics of this lens made into a modern version of the old micro nikkor. Voigtlander delves into the niche, I would buy one in a second.

[james_elwing]

I agree with Francois. I do not have a D/R Summicron, but the earlier Sooky M attachment which does the same thing. I often find myself going out with an old collapsible Summicron which fits it, rather than my 1980's Summicron, because of the versatility, to get down to 18" or so.

Actually I think Leica could easily come up with a light polycarbonate Visoflex with small fitted macro, as a pocketable accessory, but I won't mention that.

[al_kaplan1]

Visoflexes and lenses are cheap by Leica rangefinder standards. The Micro Nikkor didn't have rangefinder focussing in the close-up range although it was a superb extremely sharp lens. Leica already makes a couple of lenses that that will rangefinder focus and get you the image size of the 50 DR Summicron. If you check the area covered by the 50 DR at it's closest distance against what the 90 and 135 lenses cover at their closest distances it's pretty close. The 50 DR, even without the eyes, is an extremely heavy brass mounted lens, even heavier than the non-DR version. I found that I was often just leaving mine home unless I needed the close-up capabilities, but when I discovered that use for my 90 Elmarit I traded the DR on a used and much lighter second version 50mm Summicron, even money. Since this version gets closer than one meter anyway, I've never missed the old DR.

[dougfromtumwater]

I like your suggestion a lot François!

 

Such a lens, updated with closer focusing and "eyes," could be just the ticket for a stroll through a botanical garden or exploring one's backyard. I'd buy one in a snap!

[preston_merchant]

Francois, seems you've been gone for a while, no? Glad to have you back.

[vic_.]

Collapsible 35mm lens. f2.8 perhaps.

[feli]

I have a DR with the eyes, and frankly as much as I love and use that lens, I have only used the eyes twice. I would rather see Leica put their R&D money in to a new compact 90/2.8 Tele-Elmar ASPH/APO/whatever.

 

 

feli

[frank_horn]

The idea is interesting, but the cost of the eyes and lens would be high. I like the idea of using the 75mm focal length. I wonder if, in the close-focus range, a DR 75 might simply utilize the 90 or 135 frame and do without the "eyes" attachment? The current 75 Summilux has the smallest object field of any M lens. At close focus, it is 192 x 288 mm.

[fran__ois_p._weill]

Hi all,

 

First thanks for your answers and a special thank to Preston for his attention...

 

Lucien, the question of a replacement for the 50 mm Summilux seems to be a recurent topic on the board...

 

I admit the need certain users feel for a replacement to this aging design but I have ever wondered if it is in fact the best way to improve the Leica 50 mm range as a whole... I think there are too much 50 mm in their range and this fact certainly contributes to their price level.

 

What I will say will certainly shock some purists, but I don't see any practical use to the collapsible Elmar in a world most user never even wonder to use a - so-called - ever-ready bag... Then what is produced by Leica: a unique and magnificient Noctilux which bits to the ground anything in current production in terms of aperture, an aging Summilux and a superb, though moderately fast (for a "standard" lens) Summicron, most consider the best 50 mm ever.

 

If you look to the policy adopted for years by all other lens producers, you will notice they generally issue only two or three choices as standard lenses. Most issue a very fast one for low light circumstances, a standard maid of all work moderately open, moderately priced but fairly good at almost all apertures and sometimes a third one, devoted to close up photography. It seems to me this almost universal choice does correspond to the actual need of most photogs.

 

Then, how do you place the Summilux "new version" you are dreaming of in this classification?

 

My guess is Leica should use new techniques in producing the Noctilux, without altering anything to its quality, stop producing the collapsible Elmar and the present Summilux and cut down the price of the Noctilux making it somewhat easier to sale by a more affordable price, for example what should be expected as the price of this new Summilux. They should also keep the Summicron so they'll keep an exceptionally fast 50 mm (better than anything else in this domain), maintaining a more conventional but perfect "maid of all work" and cocentrate in developing a special lens for close focus equivalent at least to the best macro-lenses most SLR manufacturers market be it a 50 mm or a 75 mm one just to give the M mount body users more versatility in use. Most of these macro-lenses offer at least a direct access to x 0.5 magnification, remember, I said to revive the idea of close up lens with a modern design, not to issue a carbon copy of the old Dual Range...

 

Friendly

 

François

[al_kaplan1]

There is one big advantage to using a lens longer than 50mm for a macro lens on a rangefinder camera. The frame lines correct for what is included in the photograph but the view finder sees the picture from a different angle than the lens. A greater distance from the subject makes for a lesser angle between the finder's view and the lens's view, so the photo will look more like what you saw when you released the shutter.

[fran__ois_p._weill]

Joel you wrote:

 

>> I have always wanted a 50mm f3.5 micro nikkor for rangefinders but they are so overpriced and when the Voigtlander 50mm f3.5 Heliar came out the first thing that came to mind was how wonderful it would be to have the optics of this lens made into a modern version of the old micro nikkor. Voigtlander delves into the niche, I would buy one in a second. <<

 

Seems to be a good idea, but it might be not so easy to implement� V-Länder will naturally chose bugeyes fitting their own standard� Something totally incompatible with an M (and an Hexar RF). Unless they also issue a bugeye mount specially designed for Leica M and Hexar RF dimensions�

 

James Wrote:

 

>> I agree with Francois. I do not have a D/R Summicron, but the earlier Sooky M attachment which does the same thing. I often find myself going out with an old collapsible Summicron which fits it, rather than my 1980's Summicron, because of the versatility, to get down to 18" or so. Actually I think Leica could easily come up with a light polycarbonate Visoflex with small fitted macro, as a pocketable accessory, but I won't mention that. <<

 

The idea to rejuvenate the Visoflex concept is also one of my pet theories. But it will imply IMHO a complete re-assessment of the M body itself toward a full fledged electronic body which will permit the �New Viso� to transform this �M8� into a true SLR working as the most modern ones through electronics and cover a kind of new concept of all modular 35 mm system allowing to be used as required whether like a rangefinder system or an SLR according to the kind of pictures you want to take�

 

I don�t know if the M7 takes the Visoflex III (the Hexar RF does) and as far as real important magnification macro-photography is concerned the Visoflex III slow operation may not be a real liability anyway. but the volume of a Viso and a bellow will be...

 

Al Wrote:

 

>> Visoflexes and lenses are cheap by Leica rangefinder standards. The Micro Nikkor didn't have rangefinder focussing in the close-up range although it was a superb extremely sharp lens. Leica already makes a couple of lenses that that will rangefinder focus and get you the image size of the 50 DR Summicron. If you check the area covered by the 50 DR at it's closest distance against what the 90 and 135 lenses cover at their closest distances it's pretty close. The 50 DR, even without the eyes, is an extremely heavy brass mounted lens, even heavier than the non-DR version. I found that I was often just leaving mine home unless I needed the close-up capabilities, but when I discovered that use for my 90 Elmarit I traded the DR on a used and much lighter second version 50mm Summicron, even money. Since this version gets closer than one meter anyway, I've never missed the old DR.<<

 

Al, I agree, but let�s consider I never wrote about a carbon copy of the old Dual Range, but of a modern design equivalent to what you can find for many SLR�s giving you instant x 0.5 magnification�

 

Vic, wrote:

 

>> Collapsible 35mm lens. f2.8 perhaps.<<

 

Vic I�m very surprised by your proposal� A 35 mm is not exactly suited for macro-photography, it is too wide an angle and will require the subject to stand too near to the frontal lens for a practical lighting of it� As a footnote, I�m really surprised by the reference to a collapsible lens� Many years ago, when I used my first 35 mm camera, something which has no refinement at all, not even a rangefinder to measure the distances and no engraved DOF tables on the lens, this lens was also a collapsible one� one of the most current mistakes I made then was to forget to pull the collapsible part on its working position� At least, then, there was a particular advantage to this collapsible lens, the body was unable to fit in its ever-ready (never-ready?) bag. I see no practical reason to produce a collapsible lens today except perhaps fashion�

 

Feli wrote:

 

>> I have a DR with the eyes, and frankly as much as I love and use that lens, I have only used the eyes twice. I would rather see Leica put their R&D money in to a new compact 90/2.8 Tele-Elmar ASPH/APO/whatever. <<

 

Well, it all depends on the subjects we usually tackle I think� In many occasion, I would have liked to have some LIMITED macro capabilities for a few pictures in a photo session.

 

As for another 90mm thanks a lot, those available today are razor sharp and I doubt any apo or aspheric version will bring anything visible in practice, unless you use a heavy tripod and a film as slow as a nail. In which case, I think as practical to use my medium format SLR�

 

 

Frank wrote

 

>> The idea is interesting, but the cost of the eyes and lens would be high. I like the idea of using the 75mm focal length. I wonder if, in the close-focus range, a DR 75 might simply utilize the 90 or 135 frame and do without the "eyes" attachment? The current 75 Summilux has the smallest object field of any M lens. At close focus, it is 192 x 288 mm. <<

 

Frank I think the parallax problem will surge at such a close distance� Beside, the current Summilux is not corrected for close range as well as should be a dedicated macro-lens, and a very cumbersome and pricey device. Its full aperture is totally unusable in macro-photography, even at moderate magnification and, finally, its minimum aperture is on the contrary relatively limited for such a use. A x 0.5 magnification means a 72 mm high object will be recorded on the film half its height� So we go for a field of (approximately) 72mm x 48 mm, so FOUR times smaller than the minimum field covered by the 75 mm Summilux� Not really in the same league I think�

 

The price of the associated bug-eyes ?? I really can�t figure it out, but with modern technology I think the cost to make them would be significantly smaller than the one it cost when the DR was in production�

 

For once I suggest you read one of Stephen Gandy�s article in his site called �Pentax threatens the world economy� (or something like that)� Just to figure out how some manufacturers can lie about the actual cost of some products to refuse the necessary investments�

 

Friendly,

 

François P. WEILL

 

 

[lucien1]

François,

 

I bet we will see a new Summilux 50 long before Leica will even think of making a new DR.