Flash suggestions ...

[ShunCheung]

bgelfand and Ben, as I had pointed out earlier, you guys are too fixated on the SB-800. The OP is talking about using the pop-up flash from the camera to control a remote SB-600 or other flash. Therefore, the camera body is clearly a DSLR that has a pop-up flash, and that pop-up flash can serve as a CLS master, e.g. a D90, D300, D7200, D600, D750, D810 ... among many others. We are certainly not talking about a film SLR here.

 

I just checked my receipt from 2005, and I paid $320 for a new SB-800. Just on this thread, we have one person who paid close to that original price for a used SB-800 recently and another who paid less than $100 for one that clearly shows plenty of prior usage. Without more input from the OP about his budget, flash size preference, whether he likes to used and what kind of condition is acceptable to him, it is difficult to provide a good recommendation. The OP has not returned since the opening post 4 days ago. I can only assume he might have lost interest.

 

For electronics, it is typical that older technologies have a lot of disadvantages. Nikon has gradually made plenty of improvements from the SB-800 to the 900, 910 and currently the SB-5000. One of the major negatives for the SB-800 is the convoluted menu system. I recall that back in late 2008, I was with a photo group in Mexico. One person accidentally set his SB-800 in the lock position, and it took forever to figure out how to unlock it. Switching it off and on wouldn't do it. Today it maybe much easier to resolve if one can search for a solution in the field on a smart phone. It turns out that Nikon puts a little cheat sheet on the back side of that pull-out bounce card. You press onto the on/off switch and the SEL button simultaneously to lock and unlock the flash. See the picture below.

 

BTW, Ben, you can also move an SB-700, SB-900, or SB-5000 between a Nikon F and your D800, as you can with an SB-800. The SB-800 has zero advantage over the other ones because the Nikon F is so old that it has no TTL flash, which was a technology introduced in 1980 with the F3.

 

 

[rodeo_joe1]

"BTW, Ben, you can also move an SB-700, SB-900, or SB-5000 between a Nikon F and your D800...."

 

- Well yes. And conversely you can move an SB-24 from an F3 to a D800 and it'll still work... just not in TTL mode. In fact you can stick a Canon 540 EZ on a D800 and have it working in manual mode. (Which I've done BTW)

 

I really think we should rule the SB-5000 totally out of discussion here. IMO it's not a viable option. Not unless radio triggering and control is built into the camera.

 

Having to buy a stupid add-on radio controller makes the SB-5000 no more convenient or useful than simply buying one of the many 3rd party I-TTL radio kit options that have been around for years, and at a fraction of the price. And if you're going to use it with unreliable old optical AWL, then you've completely wasted your money over buying an SB-910.

Edited April 27, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

[ilkka_nissila]

I quite like the SB-5000; it has worked perfectly in my use (both on camera and as a remote). With the older optical remote triggering, it worked well in white compact rooms but not so much elsewhere. I have Elinchrom studio flashes and the triggering of the battery powered ones (Quadra Hybrid) is reliable outdoors (using their Skyport trigger) but indoors sometimes the flash that lights the background and is behind subjects is not firing. So what they did was in the next version they added an external perturbation to the chassis of the unit which contains the antenna. My mains powered flashes have this perturbation and they have never misfired. Elinchrom also introduced a more powerful trigger to the camera which alleviates the misfiring problem but it occasionally makes my camera hang and it can take them a long time to release firmware to support new cameras. With Nikon they at least try to design the kit to work together from the beginning and know the protocols rather than be forced to reverse engineer them. I recall McNally reporting in one of his books his experience with the TTL Pocket Wizards and he grew tired of them not working reliably. I've had only positive experiences with the SB-5000's using the D5 and D850 cameras; basically they have never misfired in or outdoors in my use and the fan kicks in quickly to prevent overheating and as a result you can use them closer to full flash energy without problems. Since I have more powerful flashes it hasn't been my habit to push speedlights hard but now that it's possible it is a useful feature, for example when needing some portrait or group lighting outdoors, I tend to want to soften it with an umbrella and this was problematic with speedlights in the past because you needed to double or triple them to get enough light at M1/2 or M1/4 in some circumstances and those brackets which support multiple speedlights tend to be fragile. So being able to work with just one speedlight is a benefit (of course it will still have limitations but it's also beneficial because of the compactness, simplicity and light weight).

 

I disagree about the system not being beneficial compared to third party radio triggers. My experience is that the Nikon radio system is more reliable and it does fully support all flash features of the cameras that support it, is compatible with older flashes being used in the old way, there is no extra battery required for each receiver and there is no battery in the transmitter either. Less battery maintenance is very important to me as it makes the logistics of shoots easier.

 

To my knowledge, no one makes a camera with built in radio flash trigger. The Elinchrom receiver problem (and its solution by introducing an external antenna and a more powerful transmitter) suggests that signal reception can be a problem; this is why an external antenna gadget is required also in the Nikon system. I find the WR-R0 also useful for remote triggering the camera (when it's cold, a corded release can get stiff which can then lead to vibrations being transmitted) or when using one camera to trigger another (two WR-R10(+WR-A10)'s required). I can see people would object to the apparent flimsiness of the adapter but so far so good, haven't had any problems with it. Perhaps Nikon can in the future introduce a new version where an adapter is not required to connect to the 10-pin connector.

 

I like it that it just works, no worries about the flash trigger manufacturer not including your camera model or your flash model in testing (of course this system only works on four cameras so far, but at least the buyer knows or can find out which models are compatible). I have had Elinchrom trigger hang my camera, and took a year to bring support to the D5 in the firmware of the trigger, Yongnuo, the last time I checked, excluded the single digit Nikons from being on the compatibility list. I don't want to deal with this kind of uncertainties.

 

The SB-5000 is better than the 900/910 also if you don't use the radio feature because of its active cooling and more compact size of the flash head (one of the negatives of the 900/910 is that the flash head is large making the unit top heavy). However the SB-5000 has fewer physical controls on the flash than the SB-910 which is probably a consequence of it having a smaller footprint. But I quite prefer using the SB-5000 also as on-camera (usually bounced) flash because it is less top heavy and as a result, more ergonomic.

Edited April 27, 2018 by ilkka_nissila

[ilkka_nissila]

In fact after I got the SB-900/910 I got an additional SB-700 because I felt the flash head weight of the SB-900/910 made shooting hand held portraits with the flash on camera uncomfortable and so I preferred the smaller unit, even though the larger one was capable of greater control over the spread of light and shorter recycle times. But with the SB-5000 I can have both the SB-9x0's illumination distribution control including 200mm setting (which is great for making slightly more punchy bounced light) and short recycle times, yet the flash head isn't too larger or heavy so it's like the best of both worlds. Finally the SB-700 introduced a nice mode where the lighting ratio of remote flashes can be set and it's fully TTL but the ratio is fixed by the user. The SB-9x0 don't support this mode but the SB-5000 does.

[rodeo_joe1]

"...for example when needing some portrait or group lighting outdoors, I tend to want to soften it with an umbrella and this was problematic with speedlights in the past because you needed to double or triple them to get enough light at M1/2 or M1/4 in some circumstances and those brackets which support multiple speedlights tend to be fragile. So being able to work with just one speedlight is a benefit..."

 

Huh? The SB-5000 only has the same 'power' as Nikon's previous speedlights have had for the last 30 years. How does it possibly replace 2 or 3 others? If you're saying you can use it at full power with the same recycle time as a previous speedlight at half or quarter power, I fear you're sadly mistaken. So the fan cools it off quicker when it's overheated - big deal!

 

I glanced at the 200 page manual for the SB-5000, and the story of the Emperor's New Clothes immediately sprang to mind.

 

It's just another source of light for goodness sake! And if you know what you're doing you don't need a zillion whistles and bells to apply light to the subject in the right place, and in the right amount.

Edited April 27, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

[ilkka_nissila]

In situations where a high flash energy is needed (fill flash during the day in bright sun), there is typically bright natural light which hits the flash causing overheating to happen pretty quickly on an SB-900. While the SB-910 is less likely to overheat it still can do that (or at least the temperature sensor is activated, slowing down the rate at which you can shoot) and it has done that. I'm used to firing a few shots quickly when shooting portraits because the first flash can help set the subjects at ease and then the second or third can get a more relaxed expression, but this only works if the flash is always ready to go. The SB-5000's fan activates as soon as you fire a shot, and it seems effective in keeping the flash cool. Thus instead of having 2-3 flashes at M1/4 (where the flashes can still overheat on a hot day) one can use one SB-5000 at M1/2 ... M1/1 and just keep shooting. I had a triflash bracket for such situations with my older flashes but one of the shoes broke when I was trying to use the bracket a second time. I guess it's possible it wasn't quite designed to hold the weight of an SB-900/910 or maybe it was just a poorly made unit. After that I bought the Elinchrom 400Ws battery powered flashes because I just didn't want to deal with having flashes falling off due to breaking shoes. However the SB-5000 has made me rethink and now I am again using a small flash for outdoor portraits in some conditions. It's faster to set up, lighter to carry, and can in a pinch provide TTL so I can use it if the subject(s) play around a bit and move. So far so good, the only problem is I sold most of the speedlight modifiers I used to have so I have to rebuy some things. Also I got a beauty dish for the Elinchrom (for the purpose of having a modifier which doesn't catch to wind yet provides a slightly larger light source) and don't have anything like that for a speedlight. But I'm working on solutions for these situations. I'm not suggesting a single SB-5000 will do for a sunny day but that in intermediate outdoor lighting conditions it is sometimes possible to work with one unit instead of multiple units as was necessary in the past because the flashes couldn't keep up when a high flash energy setting was used. In bright conditions or for larger groups a studio flash may still be needed, depending on the situation. But if I can place the subjects in the shade of the trees it should be ok to use just one SB-5000 which means I have less gear to carry around and am less likely to sweat. Also with the SB-5000 the setup is easier because there are no receiver accessories dangling from the flashes and the triggering just works which is a nice change.

 

The SB-5000 is not emperor's new shoes but the first completely reliable and fully featured flash I've had where I haven't found any significant flaws in practical use. With Elinchrom you can always have to wonder if it will work or not (especially if using the advanced features such as flash output control from the transmitter (you'd think it's simple but apparently not)). And yes, the Quadra also overheats in sunny conditions on a hot day. I guess one can try to avoid shooting in bright sun (I would like to do that) but it's not always easy to convince that it's a bad idea when they are under the impression that sunny pics look best.

Edited April 28, 2018 by ilkka_nissila

[Andrew Garrard]

I suspect I'm going to have an SB-5000 in my future when I switch to a D850. My problem is that on the rare occasions I use flash, I use my three SB-600s off-camera, with the on-camera flash triggering them. Of course, the SB-600s won't trigger anything. Except, not so much on the D850. I could go down the SU-800 route (which is itself expensive and big, and can't double as a flash), but it seems better to get an SB-5000 and use that as a trigger. Unfortunately:

1. It's preposterously expensive
   
2. It's huge to use as a trigger on-camera, so I also need to shell out for a WR-R10 and WR-A10 to trigger it off-camera
   
3. Once I've attached the delicate, pricey and fiddly WR-R10 and WR-A10, I then can't use a wired remote to trigger the camera because the 10-pin socket is occupied
   

I'd reluctantly accept Nikon neglecting to integrate wireless flash functionality on the D850 if they had a good solution that they could sell you for money, since they're a business. Instead, they'll sell you a poor solution.

 

Or I could go third-party and stick something in the hotshoe, but I don't feel good about it. Remember when Nikon used to be on the cutting edge of flash technology?

[Asad Ali]

I always prefer a simple system.Usually a, one bag solution.This is why I don't own a TTL strobe yet. Flash system is a tool . And it all depends, but the real thing is your own creativity how you apply it. One can have very expensive systems but all that matter is the image and the ease of work later.

Shot with one Sb 700 on camera and one Sb 700 off camera.

[ilkka_nissila]

No manufacturer has managed to integrate a radio transmitter for flash into a camera; I don't understand why this is such a point of criticism; it's the same with everyone. Built in flashes are unreliable as flash controllers (and have many other disadvantages) vs. the new radio flash system is excellent and reliable, the first remote flash control system I can say that of. The WR-R10/WR-A10 isn't more expensive than, e.g., Canon's wireless flash transmitter and because the Nikon solution is smaller it means the balance of the camera is mostly unaffected by insertion of the transciever. You can continue to use your older CLS flashes on the hot shoe as before, so you can use them as long as their lifetime allows as on-camera flashes and don't have to throw them away or find buyers. Since the radio triggering works reliably, you'll probably find yourself using remote flash more often than in the past. Yes, the SB-5000 costs money but in my opinion that is ok when something works well.

 

Why would you need to use a wired remote if you have the WR-10? The kit comes with a remote release (WR-T10).

[Andrew Garrard]

No manufacturer has managed to integrate a radio transmitter for flash into a camera; I don't understand why this is such a point of criticism; it's the same with everyone. Built in flashes are unreliable as flash controllers (and have many other disadvantages) vs. the new radio flash system is excellent and reliable, the first remote flash control system I can say that of.

 

I absolutely don't object to the switch to radio triggering, even at substantial financial outlay. I would have problems if I did optical flash triggering outdoors with complex setups. But I usually don't - 99% of my shooting is available light, and the rest has a relatively simple (but off-camera) configuration. But however unreliable the integrated flash may be as a trigger, it does usually work in the configuration I'm using - and it works a lot better than not having any way to trigger the flashes. And yes, the integrated flash is a little delicate, but not so much when it's folded down, and I really don't think it's as precarious as having something cantilevered off the 10-pin socket. I've had the rubber covering the 10-pin socket break in the past (in normal use, I didn't twist it), and at least one of the D8x0 line has been known to have failures of the socket supports - I hope the D850 fixed it. Given that Nikon is promoting radio flash, given that the camera has a wireless antenna anyway for snapbridge, and given that the D850 removes the D8x0 series' ability to trigger multiple flashes with the integrated flash, I'm genuinely a bit miffed that the solution isn't cheaper. I appreciate that integrating the radio flash makes regulation harder, but given that Nikon's radio system is relatively new you'd have thought they could have layered it on the Snapbridge technology that doesn't seem to have regulation issues.

 

For what it's worth, I did think at least one of Canon's recent DSLRs had integrated a radio flash trigger, but I no longer know their system very well, so I'm prepared to believe I imagined it.

 

The WR-R10/WR-A10 isn't more expensive than, e.g., Canon's wireless flash transmitter and because the Nikon solution is smaller it means the balance of the camera is mostly unaffected by insertion of the transciever.

 

Yes - the WR-R10/WR-A10 does seem more appealing than sticking an SB-5000 on the body just as a radio trigger. Just not nearly as appealing as using a bit of the recovered prism hump space to build in a trigger. Just a missed opportunity.

 

You can continue to use your older CLS flashes on the hot shoe as before, so you can use them as long as their lifetime allows as on-camera flashes and don't have to throw them away or find buyers.

 

Yes, but only one of them. And not in a convenient place (even though I have the precarious and over-priced curly extension cable). And, because I have a set of SB-600s (because the camera has always been a CLS trigger), I don't have the ability to trigger them directly. Given how little I use them it's not the end of the world, but it's yet another thing on the list of upgrade expenses for a D850 (with cards and an new L plate).

 

Since the radio triggering works reliably, you'll probably find yourself using remote flash more often than in the past. Yes, the SB-5000 costs money but in my opinion that is ok when something works well.

 

I was about to say that my backup option is an SB-500, which I believe can be a CLS master. It's also a much more appealing size than the SB-5000 for the occasions when I happen to be unexpectedly in the dark. In my infamous tiddlywinks shots, I usually shoot available light during the tournament (because a flash would put people off), and use the on-camera flash for the trophy presentation (because people won't wait around for me to attach anything on the camera, let alone set up an off-camera solution) - it's usually dark by evening, and capturing things for posterity is more important than aesthetics. Of course, an SB-500 is only optical - but if I used an SB-5000 I'd only have radio to it, I'd still be using it as a CLS master for the other flashes, unless I spend way more on flashes than anticipated. Going to Pocketwizard, Yongnuo or similar is much more tempting than it ought to be.

 

Anyway, choices choices, but Nikon could have made this easier. And it's not like people weren't asking for an integrated trigger way before the D850 launched.

 

Why would you need to use a wired remote if you have the WR-10? The kit comes with a remote release (WR-T10).

 

I'm a little hazy on how they work (I need to read a manual - the marketing blurb doesn't help). It appears to me that the WR-T10 is an £80 separate item, but maybe I'm wrong. It's not really a substitute for an MC-36A as far as I can tell (though I think I have a knock-off version and don't use it much). I'm willing to say I'm unlikely to use complex wireless flash with my lightning trigger or star tracker, so that whinge, at least, is hypothetical. And don't get me wrong, the price for the MC-30A (I do have an original one of those) is extortionate for what it is.

[rodeo_joe1]

"No manufacturer has managed to integrate a radio transmitter for flash into a camera;"

 

- I think it's more a case of 'No manufacturer has bothered to integrate a radio transmitter for flash into a camera;'

 

The issue of getting a radio signal outside of the camera casing is trivial. It simply requires an antenna external to any shielding, or encased in an RF transparent part of the camera. The volume and casing of an existing popup flash could easily provide this.

 

What's more of an issue for camera manufacturers, I suspect, is gaining FCC and other worldwide approvals for the radio module. Although if it can be done for a plug-in accessory, then it can be done for a complete camera.

 

Also, the thought occurs to me that if the 10 pin socket carries sufficient and speedy enough data to control an RF connected flash; then why haven't we been offered such a system years ago? It also occurs to me that it won't be long before 3rd parties reverse engineer the protocol and provide cheaper and maybe better alternatives than Nikon's lone, overpriced offering.

 

But all this is meandering a long way from the OP's original request.

Edited April 30, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

[ilkka_nissila]

Yes, the space previously taken by the pop-up could be used to build the transmitter or antenna inside the camera, but the distance from the antenna to the metal enclosure could present a problem. Eddy currents would likely be induced in the enclosure and this takes away power from the RF signal to be transmitted. By putting the antenna at some distance from the metal chassis gives it higher efficiency.

 

The metal in concrete walls in typical buildings is enough to interfere with the use of and reliability of radio controlled flash. But for some reason the Nikon system works well in my apartment (where I have a studio) whereas Elinchrom's system only works reliably if (1) I use the more powerful transmitter and/or (2) I use a flash unit with external perturbation to contain the antenna (newer units have this). The Nikon system seems much better designed and as I have said, has been perfectly reliable in my use (in all locations indoors and outdoors where I've used it).

 

Furthermore I prefer the current design in which the space prevously taken by the pop up is freed for other uses including easier use of the 24 PC and a higher magnification viewfinder. If Nikon should make a hybrid EVF/OVF in the future, the EVF module would also likely occupy this space.

 

I don't know why Nikon took so long to introduce the radio based flash control system; perhaps they felt it wasn't worth the hassle until Canon started to offer it, at which point they must have started to work on their own system.

 

One of the nice things about use of the 10-pin connector is that it frees the flash shoe for whatever you want to do with it. I think Nikon didn't make a shoe mount based radio transmitter because this would have meant the old flashes couldn't be used as on camera flashes (well of course it's possible to make a stacked hot shoe system but it's less rugged and the torques on the components can be pretty high). Since few are going to want to use them as optical remotes after buying into the radio based system, a practical way of enabling them to stay in use is as on-camera flashes. You can have the remotes trigged from the 10-pin connector and the old flash as an on camera flash (I can use my SB-700 as on camera bounced flash while SB-5000's are fired as hair light for example). Of course you could use them also as optical remotes and this facility is fully supported (through an SB or SU unit in the hot shoe), but I am not sure if there are many who will want to do that (simply because the radio system is so much more reliable). Anyway the degree of interoperability with old and new flashes in the new system is high and this is what I would call an achievement.

 

And yes, the WR-T10 remote control handset (which you get in the WR-10 kit along with the R10/A10) triggers the camera and flashes so you don't need to use a cable release.

Edited April 30, 2018 by ilkka_nissila

[ilkka_nissila]

it does usually work in the configuration I'm using

 

Ok, I'm not saying it's not possible but I never could get any useful result by using the pop up as trigger. It caused a very large rate of eye closures (the preflashes etc. did) and triggering was unreliable in many interiors, the sync light spills on the foreground of the subject and there is a long recycle time, basically it paralyzes the camera when it gets hot and it gets hot surprisingly easily. I am happy to pay extra for cameras which do not have pop-up flashes.

 

And yes, the integrated flash is a little delicate, but not so much when it's folded down, and I really don't think it's as precarious as having something cantilevered off the 10-pin socket.

 

Well, I haven't managed to break the WR-A10/R10 in two years but I treat my gear with respect and pack the camera so that the transciever is not subjected to forces in transport (or take it off).

 

given that the camera has a wireless antenna anyway for snapbridge

 

But Snapbridge works poorly (though I have managed to make it work in non-crowded situations it is very slow to transfer files and pairing takes a long time in the first place) and likely it just uses an antenna inside an IC which Nikon got cheaply. Radio flash is surprisingly hard as I've found even reputable flash manufacturers can fail to make it work correctly in all environments. Nikon is the first who managed it among those flash systems I've used. No doubt an internal antenna would make it work poorly if at all, and I would guess that a low-energy bluetooth chip would not be able to carry double duty as an antenna for radio flash.

 

I'm genuinely a bit miffed that the solution isn't cheaper.

 

I don't mind Nikon making some money to help keep them in business. Though of course it is unfortunate whenever you have to spend money, from a personal economy point of view. In this case if you don't use remote flash often and have been happy with the pop-up as commander then it may feel like a superfluous extra cost. For me it was one of the two reasons why I upgraded my D810 into the D850 to get a second camera that supports the new radio flash system. The other reason was the AF.

 

I appreciate that integrating the radio flash makes regulation harder, but given that Nikon's radio system is relatively new you'd have thought they could have layered it on the Snapbridge technology that doesn't seem to have regulation issues.

 

The reality is that Snapbridge's implementation has led almost everyone unhappy and I'm glad that the radio flash system was designed by competent people and they cut no corners in making it reliable.

 

For what it's worth, I did think at least one of Canon's recent DSLRs had integrated a radio flash trigger, but I no longer know their system very well, so I'm prepared to believe I imagined it.

 

Which one?

 

Just not nearly as appealing as using a bit of the recovered prism hump space to build in a trigger. Just a missed opportunity.

 

From my point of view it is an opportunity Nikon used to fix 24 PC compatibility, improve the viewfinder, and make me happy.

 

Yes, but only one of them.

 

You can still use e.g. SB-700 or SU-900 or SB-800 or SB-9x0 as commander or master on camera to trigger your SB-600's while adding some SB-5000s as radio remotes.

 

I'm a little hazy on how they work (I need to read a manual - the marketing blurb doesn't help). It appears to me that the WR-T10 is an £80 separate item, but maybe I'm wrong. It's not really a substitute for an MC-36A as far as I can tell

 

Sure, it's just a basic remote release with shutter button and an Fn button. The WR-T10 is part of the WR-10 package where you get all three components. You can purchase them separately but they're more expensive that way.

Edited April 30, 2018 by ilkka_nissila

[Andrew Garrard]

[Oops, sorry, crossed over.]

 

Well, yes, but the WR-T10 doesn't support the extended timed exposure that the dedicated electronic remotes do - though at least the D8x0 range can do their own interval shooting. Incidentally, my local suppliers seem to be selling the parts separately, not as a kit, so it's not clear to me that I should be spending money on a WR-T10 unless I have to...

 

I'm sure Nikon had a "me too" moment with Canon (I vaguely wonder whether they'll replace the 14-24 with an 11-24...) I'll forgive Nikon for not integrating a flash trigger if they do a hybrid EVF in a D860, but since Snapbridge works I'd really like to think the RF interference problem is manageable. Phones with mostly metal cases seem to cope.

 

Since few are going to want to use them as optical remotes after buying into the radio based system

 

...well, except me, with three SB600s. I might buy as SB5000, trigger it wirelessly from the camera, and use it to trigger the SB600s optically, but I'm really not in the market for multiple SB5000s, especially given the price.

 

Incidentally, is it me, or does the WR-A10 have to point the WR-R10 upwards? As in, blocking the PC port? If you're wondering, yes, I've used three flashes over CLS to light the subject, then used the PC port (which IIRC doesn't trigger on iTTL preflash, only on final exposure) with some cheap generic flashes to flood the background or provide a hairlight. Not often, but it'll be another thing that irritates me a bit about Nikon's choice of solution here.

 

I appreciate that I'm hijacking a thread to grumble about something I barely use, but then it's something I barely use that's going to cost me a lot of money on the rare occasions I do use it. It also comes to my attention that I should understand radio flash on Nikon a lot better than I do, with an impending upgrade. My attempts to research this have struggled, so I'll try a new thread.

[Andrew Garrard]

Having never used Snapbridge, my impression with it was that tying it to a dedicated application and only downloading shrunken images were more of a problem, not the connectivity. But that's just what would stop me even trying it. I wish my Eye-Fi was faster, or I'd be using it, but class 10 is interminable at decent resolutions. Given how small phones are, I'm surprised there's nowhere on a D850 that could house a decent antenna; you could always wrap one around the flip-out screen, for example.

 

And yes, I'm happy to pay Nikon some money to stay solvent (I'm worried about DxO at the moment) and make better products. Unfortunately, in this case, while the finder was improved (and would anyone really have been distraught if the prism hump was a couple of mm bigger to achieve this?) removing the flash otherwise mostly took away functionality that I was using, and the alternatives are in at least some ways, for me, inferior - which is why I was using them. And the alternatives don't seem to be thought out well enough to compensate.

 

But given the number of scratches on my screen protector (I blame my work security card lanyard) I'm already going to have to treat a D850 a bit nicer, so maybe a dangly thing on the front isn't the problem I expect it to be. :-)

 

(Canon DSLRs with integrated radio triggers...)

 

Which one?

 

If I could remember that, I'd know whether I was imagining it. :-) I did have a quick look and couldn't obviously find one, so I believe you, I just thought I'd remembered otherwise. I pay even less attention to Canon's system to the D3x00 range, so I could be ascribing all kinds of odd functionality to them.

[ilkka_nissila]

[Oops, sorry, crossed over.]

since Snapbridge works I'd really like to think the RF interference problem is manageable. Phones with mostly metal cases seem to cope.

 

But Snapbridge doesn't really work in the sense that you could rely on it. If there is a large crowd of people with mobile phones, it doesn't pair. It can take minutes to pair to a phone and all this time you never know if you will be able to get pairing or not. Once paired, it'll transfer files at a rate of 1 file per 30 seconds and the file is a FullHD resolution JPG. But I'm sure that if they had used more power and an external antenna it would work much better.

 

Incidentally, is it me, or does the WR-A10 have to point the WR-R10 upwards? As in, blocking the PC port?

 

No, you can rotate it around the axis defined by the 10-pin connector, about 170 degrees or so (to the side or towards the bottom of the camera). So you should be able to use the PC connector while having the WR-R10/A10 mounted.

Edited April 30, 2018 by ilkka_nissila

[ilkka_nissila]

I understand the impression that the A10/R10 seems flimsy, and I'm sure it's possible to break it, but when handled with care it should work fine. Perhaps Nikon can later offer a shoe-mount transmitter with control panel to provide an alternative, something like a radio version (or a radio + IR version) of the SU-800. This would give separate controls and display to the flash settings and be smaller than a real flash unit, and be less flimsy. Alternatively, they could design the R10/A10 to be one piece and shaped differently. But, for now, the R10/A10 works for me.

[Andrew Garrard]

Thanks, Ilkka. I'd attributed Snapbridge's behaviour to Nikon's inability to write software, but I'm prepared to believe that antennae aren't in their area of expertise either. I'd gladly buy a WT-7 if they'd thought to send the connection through the pins on the bottom of the camera (rather than hooking to USB) and if it also offered the functionality of the MB-D18. Dear Nikon, I will pay you more money if you do stuff right, please stop bodging things together.

 

Anyway, good to know about the A10/R10. The manual seemed to indicate that you weren't supposed to rotate it, but it wasn't exactly clear, so I'll take your reassuring word for it. If I go that route, I'll try not to break it immediately too. :-)

 

I must remember to trade in my SG-31R when I replace the D810... (not that the integrated flash has ever caused me trouble as a flash trigger - I've always found it's quite dim compared with the actual flashes, but YMMV.)

[ShunCheung]

The transition from optical (Nikon CLS) to radio remote flash trigger is a necessary technological advance. I am reasonably happy with CLS for indoor use, but optical trigger is problematic outdoors. Radio trigger should improve in both areas.

 

It is unfortunate that Nikon flashes are getting progressively more expensive:

1. SB-800, 2003, $320
   
2. SB-900, 2008, $500
   
3. SB-810, 2011, $550
   
4. SB-5000, 2016, $600
   

Personally I dislike the 10-pin connector. It is difficult to screw things onto it and take them off due to the limited space. Recently I use some Dawn Tech GPS units that use that 10-pin connection. Two of my GPS units fell off in the field. The first one was lost as I didn't notice it for a day or two. Since then I pay a lot of attention to it and managed to retrieve the second one that fell off within about 15 minutes.

 

I too wish Nikon would introduce an equivalent of the SU-800 for radio trigger. It has been over two years since Nikon introduced the SB-5000, but they have not introduced additional components in their radio flash system.

[ShunCheung]

Since the OP hasn't returned at all after the opening post, and the topic has shifted to Nikon's radio trigger, where Andrew has started a new thread, I am closing this discussion with a link to the new thread:

 

Nikons and radio flash (2018 edition)