enrique_munoz1 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I was wandering what the profile of a typical Leica collector would be? Rich and retired? Japanese? Other? Who are these people? How much equipment do they actually have? I have never met a Leica collector, but the way some of the older products are priced there must be many around. How many Leica collectors are there? Real collectors I mean, not people with under utilized equipment (like myself :)). Just wandering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_kastner Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 No, not too many, I don't have enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin m. Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Good question, Enrique, I'm glad you asked it as I've often wondered the same thing myself. I wonder if you'll get many replies, though. There seems to be some hostility to collecting on this forum, which doesn't make much sense since the collector's market helps Leica remain a going concern. Without them, we'd all be here talking about our Contax IIa's :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F. Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 If collectors didn't drive the prices up, Leicas would be more reasonably priced for those who use them, and that would probably help keep Leica a going concern. Volume, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christopher_a._junker Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Join the Leica Historical Society Of America(LHSA) and you'll encounter a group of serious collectors of Leica gear. I'm more interested in the Jay Leno approach. I like that as he maintains and drives his historical cars, I try to maintain and use my Leicas. However we are lucky in that Leica continues to make great equipment for those of us who appreciate what the company stands for and are willing to pay for a unique product. However I wonder how the collectors feel about Tom A's M and LTM Rapidwinder business that must lessen demand for the Leicavits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwilburn Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Being in the market for a used Leica, I've been patrolling eBay for a few weeks. I have a good sense of what a reasonable price is for used gear and twice I went to the limit of reasonableness only to be outbid. I was curious so I checked on the buyers' ratings and followed some of their recent purchases. The ones who outbid me were buying like mad: Leicas, cultured pearls, Mont Blanc pens, antique tin soldiers! There are some well-heeled people out there driving up the prices of used equipment. Makes it tough for those of us on a moderate budget who just want a good shooter. BTW, I did win a bid last night on a nice looking Leica CL with 40mm Summicron f2! It'll be on the street, not in a glass cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I've never understood the idea of collecting anything, basicaly I don't see the point in buying things just to put them in a case. However I do have three large empty fish tanks filled with camera gear which I bought and used, but no longer use very much. I'm sentimental about my own equipment, not somebody else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry_chu2 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Enrique, I believe there is a bit of a collector in many of us. It would seem to me that an avid collector would be searching for the most pristine examples of any given item and not bothering with the "user" examples. (The exception, of course, are the well used black paint M's and cameras of famous photographers.) Mint M2's, 3's and 4's sell for nearly $2000. Users go for $500-800. I would argue that diehard collectors are not responsible for keeping the prices of user items up but, rather, it is the user who recognizes the functional value of the equipment, the relative scarcity of Leica M's and therefore rangefinders, and the current new pricing structure which inflates the price. Take, for example, a nice Nikon F in mint condition which would sell for well over $1000, a user would sell for about $150. The collector element is there but Nikon F's were made in great number and only represent a small segment of all SLR's. I am one who would be delighted to have cheaper used Leicas but the market forces playing on scarcity and desirability, beyond the collector, keep prices up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awahlster Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Well I collect. Leica's Brauns TLR's Canon FD and any other thing that suits my fancy.I'm a 45 year old Married truck driver with an annual income under $30,000 household under $60,000 I currently own 45+ camera only two are Leica's a IIIf RD and a IIIg 5 lenses and a few little items. I use every thing I collect and everything has to be in good working order (that's why both of my bodies are at DAG's right now) So I guess rich Japanese is a bit off. Unless you don't think I'm deep enough to be considered a collector as I only have two bodies. But if a good deal on a third would come along I'd jump as fast as I could on a If or a nice wartime IIIc showing a little mileage. Mark W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enrique_munoz1 Posted February 7, 2003 Author Share Posted February 7, 2003 Mark, thanks for your direct and honest reply. I should just state that my question was not meant to be disrespectful to any collectors. Although I am not a collector myself, I think that it is a perfectly respectable pass time. I also do not think that colletors do any financial harm to Leica the company - in fact I think that they benefit Leica greatly by driving second hand prices up and making new gear comparatively more price attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_lee2 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Dentists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica_phil Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Jay, Did you see Andrew's last post? Sounds like fightin' words to me! And by the way, fishtanks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip_williams Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Jay, Do you have water in the fish tanks and fish to keep the old gear company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 During the "fat Eighties" I was more than flush, and could collect anything my heart desired. My Leica Collection was killer after awhile. But I wanted to use them all the time. Which became kind of a dumb thing to do considering how valuable they were. I would sling one over my shoulder with Leicavit mounted, then attend photo/swap shows to drive the Japanese buyers crazy. Finally, the kind of money they were offering was to good to pass up. Those cameras would be worth a lot more than any investments I made back then. Now I'll be lucky to retire to run a hot-dog stand on a beach somewhere. #@#># stock market !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 <<Dentists-- Andrew Lee , February 07, 2003; 11:13 A.M. Eastern Jay, Did you see Andrew's last post? Sounds like fightin' words to me!>> I'm a dental ceramist, I own a laboratory. I *wish* a lot of dentists were into Leicas, it'd be a good icebreaker for getting business ;>) Actually I only know one dentist who owns a Leica, though I know many who are superb photographers. <<And by the way, fishtanks?>> Have you ever priced real display cases? They cost hundreds. A 1'x1'x2' glass tank with a fluorescent light in the lid costs me about $30 at Pet Supermarket. <<Jay, Do you have water in the fish tanks and fish to keep the old gear company?>> Only the one with the Nikonos stuff;>) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I don't collect cameras, I just sort of accumulate them as I buy them, use them, and then move on to something else as my needs change. I've only sold a bunch of Leica gear once (M3SS, M4 black paint, Visoflex 3, mint IIIg, and lots of other neat stuff), on consignment through CAMERA ONE, and never got paid for any of it. What a waste! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 To those churlish individuals who begrudge collectors (I am one - a collector, that is), let me first say that Leica prices were higher than comparable items from other makers long before there was such a thing as a Leica collector. I am old enough to remember the days (late 60s) before Leica was collected when their cameras and lenses were still priced higher than the top of the line from Nikon. Secondly, what a collector will pay for a rare early Leica has little or no bearing upon new Leica prices, you cannot blame that on collectors. Leica charges what they charge, not because of what a collector will pay for an original black paint M3 or a model A Anastigmat or a Leica MP camera. Next, as far as everyday user Leica items such as a user grade M2, M3, etc. and matching lenses: Even items like this are not heavily determined by the collector market. Collectors drive up the prices for near mint items (ie., very high grades of common items) or very rare items (in any grade). They do not bid up the price of common items in a common grade. Not to any significant extent. Finally, there are a lot of "collectors" out there who are not rich, but buy a few items because they like them, admire the workmanship, etc. I would suspect far more than the wealthy collectors who can afford to buy the type of items like the MP, black paint M3, etc. If you talk to Leica dealers, they will tell you that in addition to the USA, Europe, and Japan, Leicas are frequently sold into third world countries, where there is still a fascination with these old precision hand made items, even the very common ones. -Sign me - a collector and proud of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 And speaking of collectors... There is an interesting Leica being offered for sale. Those of you who have a minimum of $ 40,000 Euros to spend (it will probably actually cost a lot more by the time the bidding is over) may want to take notice. The Leicashop in Austria/WestLicht auctions (go to leicashop.at and click on auctions) is offerring not just an early M3, but the VERY FIRST production M3, a camera with a pedigree: SN 700,000. That's right, the first production M3. [There were some pre-production M3s built that looked different in various respects from the actual production - they are pictured in Lager Vol I.] My guess is that this camera will bring a lot of money, but will have no impact on the price of a graden variety M3 user, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin m. Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Wow, Enrique, you got more responses than I thought you would! What Henry and Eliot are saying makes a lot of sense; collectors aren't jacking up the prices on run-of-the-mill Leicas, it's our fellow users who keep the prices high. I don't think it's so odd to collect things - I have a couple of friends with collections and I enjoy looking them over - but I could never resist the temptation to use something that feels as good in the hand as a Leica body. I'd end up denting or scratching my mint collectible, so I'm better off buying a user to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert knapp md Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I am not a collector as of yet but I could see myself gradually getting into it. Elliot, you said that they wanted $44,000 for Leica M# #700,000 ? I would rather have HCB's if I had my druthers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awahlster Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 To add to the very quick post I made earlier (during a 1/2 hour lunch) I have been a collector of things since I was a kid. I currently collect very actively: Model Airplane magazines I have over thirty titles from 1938 to the persent many I have every issue the collection totals over 5000 mags with 20 apple boxes of duplicates some of these are worth over $100.00 most average around 5-6.00 each all are worth over $1.00 ea. Model Airplane Books early 1900's to present somewhere around 50 in the collection Aviation Books general stuff around 50 books Popular Mechanics magazines over 300 all pre 1965 Model Airplane memorabelia and paper things some items in this collection are one of a kind. Firearms currently 15 ranging from Cap and Ball muzzel loaders to a model 95 Winchester in 30-40 Krag with deluxe factory burl walnut stock and Lyman peep sight to modern hunting rifles and automatic Handguns. Aviation Serials (like hardy boy books) 1910 to 1946 over 250 books many complete series including the very very RARE Dave Dawson series including "Dave Dawson at Truk" value around $450.00 on ebay. And about a dozen minor colletions from Model cars to lanterns. What I don't have is a car payment. I drive a 37 year old ford pickup the wife drives a 67 Mustang I am restoring. I don't drink haven't spent more then a couple of minutes in a bar for over ten years. I don't smoke(2 packs a day = $250.00 a month X 4 months = a nice IIIg) In about a month and a half I will pay off my house with a small inheritance from my Dad and I will be completely debt free. Same wife for 20 years two kids one just out of active duty in the Navy the other in delayed entry leaving in June for basic training he's going into Subs electronics computers Navigation he did so well on his tests and background check (perfectly clean) That they are giving him a $6000.00 sign on bonus. My wife enjoys wildlife photography with me and one of my two Leicas she found and bought for me. OK so my life just don't suck and I collect. I use what I collect and I'm having a blast. Mark W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 No Albert. 40,000 EURO is the starting bid in the auction. I'll bet it goes for $ 100,000 or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd thacker Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 I met a <I>fascinating</I> man at a recent photo show. Japanese, in his early eighties, he was browsing the tables there with his young (fifties) daughter, who seemed very protective of him. Casually dressed - light cotton jacket, lightweight trousers, baseball cap - very relaxed in his movements and manner, he was altogether easygoing.<P> Somehow we got on the subject of Leicas and he told me he is a collector - of Leicas, Contax, and Nikon. Said he'd been collecting since the early fifties. That, starting then, in fact, his practice had been to buy a model when it came out and keep it, unopened, in the box it came in. He had several versions of virtually everything, including the lenses. Then he pulled out a booklet of 4 X 6 photos of his collection - I was speechless. He said that he realized he is now getting on in years, and hated to see the collection broken up. He wanted, he said, to see it go to someone who appreciated it as much as he did. <P> Looking back, I now realize he was discreetly looking for a buyer - of the whole thing. Me, I was just looking for a camera. <P> Parenthetically, he also mentioned that he once also collected cars - until finally he ran out of room, and realized that cameras were a more practical thing to collect. He was really a charming and likeable fellow. By the way, I have his name and number - if any of you is interested in buying an entire collection that must, I'm sure, run well into seven figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_Es Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Finally, after years of denial, I have to admit it--and so I will like Roskolnikov in the public square. I am a collector. More of a magpie, a pack rat. I have nothing in glass cases. It all over the place. Little cars. Five bicycles. A couple of cameras too. Once something enters my life it stays. I admit it, I am a collector. I'll never get anything like a super rare M3 or a Leicavit. Which brings me to the following. Not to worry about the Abrahamsson Rapidwinder depressing the Leicavit market. There is no Leicavit market. Leicavits are rare. The ones for Barnack Leicas are very expensive and virtually impossible to repair. The Leicavits for the MP, M2, M1 and MD are almost non-existent. Spare parts are hard to come by. The Abrahamsson Rapidwinder for M2,M1,MP and MD may soon become a collector's item as it is will no longer be made after all orders are taken care of. Yes, I have one on my M2. And, no, I'm not thinking of selling it It is a useful tool. Some day I will own an olive Leica M6 or M7. So much for my weird tastes. Welcome to Collectors Annonymous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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