EVIL Sony on the way...

[ricardovaste]

<p>Nice to hear something from them, they've been a little quiet. All sounds good to me, looking forward to seeing the new stuff.</p>

<p>http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/digital_imaging/digital_cameras/cyber-shot/release/56463.html</p>

[paul_de_ley]

<p>Yes, let's hope they will give more specifics later today on the actual specs of the EVIL camera(s?) and the a700 successor!</p>

 

[biomed]

<p>I was hoping Sony would have something more than just plnas for the future.<br>

<strong>PMA 2010: </strong>Sony has decided to keep no secrets and has outlined its <strong>forthcoming plans</strong> for 2010, including an APS-C competitor for micro Four Thirds. The company has <strong>mockup images</strong> of a compact, slimline camera, plus three lenses including a currently-fashionable pancake prime.<strong> Alpha SLR enthusiasts will be heartened by a promised successor to the highly-regarded A700 that will shoot AVCHD video</strong>, shown alongside an as-yet unidentified, smaller video-capable body. Finally the high end is catered for by an upcoming Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 24mm F2 wideangle lens, and a 500mm F4 G telephoto in what appears to be the same silver finish as graces the 80-400mm F4-5.6. (18:00 GMT)</p>

[andylynn]

<p>I find the tiny cameras that appear to be Alpha mount intriguing. How do they get the right amount of distance between the lens and the sensor? Those two new lenses look pretty serious as well and the A700 replacement is overdue but I wonder what the more compact camera with the AVCHD is - is that the 450? - and how many cameras in that class Sony can release in a year. The 230, 330, 380, 500, 550 and 450(?) all in the span of 12 months...</p>

[robert_paul1]

<p>Andrew, you might want to take a closer look at the 'camera'. Notice that there is no lever for the aperture lug found on the Alpha lenses, so how will it activate A-mount lenses? The mock-ups don't show it having any electronic contact points in the body, so Sony doesn't want to give away the number of contacts it will have. Nor, do you see any hint of a screw drive in the body.<br>

The only thing that shows that it is an 'Alpha' is the alpha emblem on the front. However, most reports of the camera indicates that camera will have a new lens mount design. However, Sony has said that there will be an adapter to allow use of A-mount lenses on the camera. It is an Alpha in name only.<br>

On the other hand, there is no indications that you'll be able to use lenses specifically designed for the EVIL camera, on your Alpha DSLR. This means that the camera would not be a camera designed for people who moved from a P&S to it, then want to move up to a DSLR Alpha. The camera is a dead-end for Sony, as i doesn't allow for upward mobility.</p>

[andylynn]

<p>Well that's annoying but I guess the face-value reading was a bit too good to be true. Still, if the adapter works well, could be a worthwhile thing - but the market wouldn't be for going from P&S to this to DSLR, it would have to be things like having one of these in addition to a DSLR.</p>

<p>If it's a conventional flange distance issue requiring an adapter to extend the mount out, I wouldn't expect to be able to use the lenses on an Alpha camera. Maybe you're right, and the market for this isn't going to be huge. It would be disappointing if Sony were just reacting to Olympus and Panasonic, instead of leading. Minolta products were always strongest when they were at the head of the curve.</p>

[ricardovaste]

<blockquote>

<p>The camera is a dead-end for Sony, as i doesn't allow for upward mobility.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>You have to remember that these are the very first 'EVIL' cameras from Sony with a new mount. There will be a whole range eventually, high and low. So I think there will eventually be a lot of room for 'growth' within the new mount... of couse, 4 or so years ago we just had the A100. There wasn't a lot of room for growth there either, however you did have a clear idea of where things would go.</p>

<p>This does leave things somewhat ambiguous. Presumably, the EVIL cameras will fill the lower end bodies eventually, and traditional SLR's will fill the higher end. But eventually we will have an electronic viewfinder worthy of professional use/rivalling the highest quality optical viewfinder. Then I suspect there will be a strange cross-over, but I don't think that will be for quite sometime yet.</p>

[robert_paul1]

<blockquote>

<p>"This does leave things somewhat ambiguous. Presumably, the EVIL cameras will fill the lower end bodies eventually, and traditional SLR's will fill the higher end. But eventually we will have an electronic viewfinder worthy of professional use/rivalling the highest quality optical viewfinder. Then I suspect there will be a strange cross-over, but I don't think that will be for quite sometime yet."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Richard, your statement just backed-up what I was saying. The EVIL camera's lenses won't fit the A-mount bodies, because they are designed for a smaller lens flange to sensor distance. So, someone who starts out with the EVIL camera, and buys several lenses, and then wants to move up to the A-mount won't be able to use their lenses on the A-mount DSLRs. It is a DEAD-END, with no mobility to move into a DSLR. At best, they might serve as a back-up for someone with an Alpha, but they will be disappointed by the adapter needed to use their present A-mount lenses.<br>

As for the viewfinder, none of the reviews and posts I've seen say that the image is like that of a traditional OVF. And, I have yet to see any indication that they will match what you see in an actual OVF. They will always be like watching a TV picture.<br>

Finally, if EVIL cameras are so great, why hasn't the 4/3, or micro 4/3 system taken a larger piece of the photo business. These cameras will always be a niche market IMO.</p>

[steven_f1]

<blockquote>

<p>Finally, if EVIL cameras are so great, why hasn't the 4/3, or micro 4/3 system taken a larger piece of the photo business.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>m4/3 has only been on the market for a little over 1 year now. They haven't been on the market long enough to make any significant change in the published statistics. These camaeras are selling well which is only reason why Samsung and now Sony have designed APS-C equivelents. So if current trends continue I would expect EVIL cameras to take up a larger portion of the market.</p>

<p>4/3 DSLRs (which have been on the market for at least 5 years) are not EVIL cameras and as shuch have not had any significant advantage (with the possible exception of depth of field) over APS-C and Full Frame DSLRs.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>So, someone who starts out with the EVIL camera, and buys several lenses, and then wants to move up to the A-mount won't be able to use their lenses on the A-mount DSLRs. It is a DEAD-END</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Canon sells a line of EFS lenses for APS-C DSLRs only. These lenses will not fit on Canons 5D or 1D cameras and it is not possible to adapt them to a full frame camera with an adaptor. EFS lenses are selling and apparently not stopping people from upgrading to full frame cameras.</p>

<p>For EVIL cameras a person only needs to purchase the kit lens that comes with the camera. They can if they want then purchase only DSLR lenses and use them with an adaptor. When they are ready to move up to DSLR they would then only have to buy one new lens. For telephoto lenses the added wight and size of a adaptor is not a big deal since the lens will be as big or bigger than the camera.</p>

[ricardovaste]

<blockquote>

<p>The EVIL camera's lenses won't fit the A-mount bodies, because they are designed for a smaller lens flange to sensor distance. So, someone who starts out with the EVIL camera, and buys several lenses, and then wants to move up to the A-mount won't be able to use their lenses on the A-mount DSLRs.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Yes, and that just ignores what I was saying... these are the first, basic models. If the new mount expands (and only can) there <em>will</em> be a way to move up. Up to a more substantial evil camera, with better specs and better build quality. Back up camera? Excellent! I know most of us don't need or want the weight/size of an SLR with us all the time, yet always strive for the output of one.</p>

<p>It's fine if you don't like the idea of these smaller cameras Robert. Just I know a great deal of photographers that do. Like Steven mentions, the current micro 4/3 cameras haven't been on the market long and have attracted a lot of interest. I know many photographers that have either bought one along side their SLR or have been waiting to see what the likes of Canon/Nikon/Sony come up with, as at the end of the day, the current micro 4/3 options are early technology and many expect Nikon/Canon/Sony to come out with a very competitive product.</p>

[robert_paul1]

<p>Richard, neither you nor Steven addressed the issue of the VF. I have not seen any indication that any technology will produce a true life-like image using an EVF. Look at all the HDTVs on the market, none of them offer a true lifelike image.</p>

<p>As for a more upscale EVIL camera, why hasn't the competition produced or shown any prototype of them? Surely, Olympus would be looking to the future, but they aren't positioning their m4/3s as cameras that will lead to higher end cameras. Plus, the price of the current m4/3 are already higher than a comparable APS-C DSLR.</p>

<p>Steven, your point about the Canon EFS lenses is a non-issue for most Canon DSLR users, as they aren't the type that would move up to a professional model like the 5D or 1D. The 5D and 1D are not mainstream cameras. However, Sony's cameras like the A330, A200, et al, are mainstream cameras, and someone who starts out with a Sony EVIL camera, who then looks to move up, won't be able to take their lenses along for the ride.</p>

[ricardovaste]

<blockquote>

<p>Richard, neither you nor Steven addressed the issue of the VF. I have not seen any indication that any technology will produce a true life-like image using an EVF. Look at all the HDTVs on the market, none of them offer a true lifelike image.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I did in my second post. I simply believe technology is always improving and that <em>one day</em> we will have very good electronic viewfinders.</p>

<p>I don't think you can compare Olympus to the likes of Canon/Nikon/Sony. They don't have the same kind of power. If you wait a little and see what other produce I think we'll see different levels of these small EVIL cameras. It's not that difficult to contemplate, we see different levels of products in all sorts of electronics as you of course know.</p>

<p>Anyway, take care. Happy shooting.</p>

[robert_paul1]

<p>Richard, fifty years ago, people predicted that in the year 2000, we'd all be 'driving' around in our personal air car. The TV makers including Sony have displays that show 16,000,000 different colors, and contrast levels have gone way up, and Sanyo has talked of TVs that have resolution levels of 4000p and 6000p. Yet, none of these companies have ever said their image is as real as life.</p>

<p>I keep reading on different forums of how people want an EVIL camera, but every week I go into Ritz and ask how the m4/3 cameras are moving, and keep hearing that they don't move that well.</p>

<p>This is a case of people wanting the latest technologies, but when it comes time to lay their money down on the counter, or after they try the cameras, decide to pass on the purchase.</p>

[steven_f1]

<blockquote>

<p> keep reading on different forums of how people want an EVIL camera, but every week I go into Ritz and ask how the m4/3 cameras are moving, and keep hearing that they don't move that well.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For a while I never understood how the local Ritz stores stayed in business since I rarely saw them sell any cameras. Now all of the Ritz shops in my area are out of business. Ritz made most of its money selling printing services and developing film. With digital replacing film they couldn't stay in business. Cameras were only a minor part their sales. You really should be asking Adorama and B&H how the sales are going. Additionally some photography web sites have very active m3/4 forums. For some reason Photo.net 4/3 is not that active. </p>

<p>Besides, m4/3 cameras are new. Most people don’t know a thing about them. And when someone is looking for a camera they look for good deals on Canon, Nikon, or Sony cameras. Many people don’t even know Olympus is still making cameras. As I said earlier m4/3 has only been out for a little more than 1 year. While most people don’t know about it Sony and Samsung sure took notice of the sales they were generating. </p>

<blockquote>

<p> <br>

I have not seen any indication that any technology will produce a true life-like image using an EVF. Look at all the HDTVs on the market, none of them offer a true lifelike image.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well if no HDTV offer true life images none of the compact pocket cameras (not EVIL cameras) off true life images. Besides, the purpose of the screen on the cameras is not to produce a true life image. It only has to offer a image good enough to check framing, depth of field and exposure. Most people want a true life picture in the file the camera creates. The little LCD on the back only has to be good enough for it get the job done. Compact pocket cameras are really hot sellers so most people apparently believe it is good enough. Same goes for all the people buying HDTV and Blue Ray disks. Additionally digital images from m4/3 and APS-C sensors are good enough to make prints 11X14" or larger that are indistinguishable from film which also sold very well prior to the first digital cameras. Most people rarely make a print bigger than 8X10”. While you may not feel the LXCDs on the camera are good enough, it is obvious the most people do based on the sales of live view cameras, LCD TVs, and high definition TV.</p>

 

[robert_paul1]

<blockquote>

<p>Well if no HDTV offer true life images none of the compact pocket cameras (not EVIL cameras) off true life images. Besides, the purpose of the screen on the cameras is not to produce a true life image. It only has to offer a image good enough to check framing, depth of field and exposure. Most people want a true life picture in the file the camera creates. The little LCD on the back only has to be good enough for it get the job done. Compact pocket cameras are really hot sellers so most people apparently believe it is good enough. Same goes for all the people buying HDTV and Blue Ray disks. Additionally digital images from m4/3 and APS-C sensors are good enough to make prints 11X14" or larger that are indistinguishable from film which also sold very well prior to the first digital cameras. Most people rarely make a print bigger than 8X10”. While you may not feel the LXCDs on the camera are good enough, it is obvious the most people do based on the sales of live view cameras, LCD TVs, and high definition TV.</p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>

 

</blockquote>

<p>That is the advantage of an OVF. It gives you a real lifelike image. You can see the slight nuances that an EVF cannot. Maybe you like the over-saturated colors that you see on the TV screen, but I enjoy seeing life as it is, and once I take a picture, make adjustments in PhotoShop.</p>

[rdm]

<blockquote>

<p>(with the possible exception of depth of field)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Steven, can you explain or elaborate on this?</p>

[fast_primes]

<p>There are some major optical benefits to eliminating the standard slr mirror and shortening the lens flange to sensor distance:</p>

<ul>

<li>Wide angle lenses can be very nearly symmetrical in design--and subsequently much more compact, with less distortion and <em>sharper </em>at the same time! Wide zooms also. Think rangefinder optics. No more 72mm filter thread wide zooms or primes!</li>

<li>Normal lenses will benefit as well--but not as much as wides.</li>

</ul>

<p>Then one gets the traditional rangefinder benefits of no mirror slap/motor noise, more compact camera design, etc. Although focusing accuracy and speed may not yet match a Leica M.</p>

<p>With Olympus, Panasonic, Samsung and now Sony--it's going to be interesting!</p>

<p> </p>