tony_rocha Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Saw on the auction site an M2 with the marking Betriebsk with a 4 digit number where the normal serial number is usually located. What does it mean? The seller also clarified that the top plate had been replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Betriebsk means a camera for internal factory use *and they were typically engraved with special four digit SNs). They would not have been sold to the public, but may have been appropriated by Leitz employees. These cameras are quite uncommon and usually command a significant premium among collectors. However, if the top plate was replaced, all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 The camera you mention may very well be an original Betriebiskamera 'factory camera' , although the top plate has been replaced indicated by the newer M4 style bulb engraving. Also the Betriebsk and serial number are engraved differently than the usual. I'll include a photograph here to show you the standard factory engraving on a camera I have. This M2 would be a later camera, one of the last 'Betriebsk'. The earlier M3 and LTM cameras had a matching engraving on the bottom of the internal shutter housing, one of the ways to tell an original, and the M2 did not have this internal engraving. As an in house Leitz 'factory camera' these were used for various purposes; testing, variations of new but unreleased models, and general company use. Most were destroyed at some point, and a few found there way into employees hands, maybe as a discounted bonus. In use many were up-graded, repaired, and changed to keep functioning, and so a new top plate like this M2 on eBay may be one of those. But it may just be a blank M2 top plate engraved to look like a premium priced Betriebiskamera also. All original parts are important for this as a 'collectors' camera, and this camera is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 That didn't work, so I'll try another photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 one more time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 why isn't this working, not that this photo is important, but just want it to work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic_. Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Robert, your camera has the extra "M3-" where the 4 digit number is located. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3002493311&category=30030 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Robert. It's working. I can see the image, even though it says undisplayable. Most of the Betriebsk cameras I have seen are M3s (with an occasionaly SM, but usually it is an M3). I haven't come across an M2, other than the one mentioned above, if it is genuine. But I'm sure they exist. All are rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Robert, I should mention that yours appears to be a very early M3 bsk camera, since it has several very early features: The rewind crank has the small diameter inner tube with a single red dot on top. The rear screw on the accessory shoe is halved, It has the early type film advance lever. And it has the early non-geometric shutter speeds. A nice example of its type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Yes, this was a very early example; 200ASA film dial, film door balls, ceramic pressure plate, the film advance sprocket is solid golden brass, on the front no frame lever and the long rewind release lever, with a few other early parts and the internal engraving. I should mention that I sold this camera recently. I never 'used' it and it wasn't one of those cameras that I would call dear to my heart, but an investment. Sometimes cameras can be 'working' without making photographs ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Just curious what you got for it. I thought about buying one, but I thought it was too expensive even being rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy. Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Tony, I have a M2 Betreibsk. Serial number is 20XX. They do exist. Mine has been authenticated by Leica. The camera is very expensive and I obtained it in Europe. If you really want to buy it, I can forward you some photos for comparison. If you are not collecting M bodies, then just buy a regular M anyhting and not waste money on something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I don't know if I want to talk about prices/Leica collecting on this forum, as there seems a lot of hostility to the idea of Leicas for collecting. But I'm happy to email you personally. Maybe if we 'gang up' and get a few others to follow, the idea of practical Leica 'collectors' knowledge and the reality that it can help with equipment inquires can tone down the negativity. Best Regards, and its always a pleasure to read your posts, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy. Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Hi Robert, Are you responding to Tony's enquiry or mine? I am a little confused.... Sandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Hello Sandy, Sorry, I was answering Eliot's question about the price I sold my M3 for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Robert. I wouldn't worry about the anti-collector sentiment on this site. We have to put up with a lot of other nonsense on this site (eg., digital vs film), so let them get upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony_rocha Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 Thanks for the information. As you can see some fortunate or unforfunate soul is now the proud owner of a Betriebsk M2. For me the fact that the top was a replacement had put me off bidding. I don't feel there is much bad feeling against collectors by users in this forum. I suspect many of us are both collectors and users, and for me most of my cameras are collector as well as user cameras. This is a great forum, and certainly the amount of knowledge, and people's readiness in sharing and expressing their opinions is one of its strengths. Sometimes a little vitrio can bring out interesting debate, although there will inevitably be the odd ball who will not hesitate to abuse others with different opinions. By the way is there anyone out there with an original black paint M2 sitting in a cupboard and suffering from neglect, and who would like to find a new home for it with a collector/user who will make sure it will have good active service. Well I can always dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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