Maxxum 7D and easy lighting ratio set up

[tmorgan]

The Maxxum 7 had a neat feature for setting up a 2 to 1 lighting ratio between an off

camera flash, and the built in flash. This was handy for 'party pictures'.

 

The Maxxum 7D references manual says, and some test shots confirm, that when you put

the 7D into wireless flash mode, the on camera flash is used *only* for control of the

remote flash, not for providing any illumination of the subject.

<br>

==

<br>

Has anyone worked out an easy to setup scheme, for getting a nice ratio of external flash

to on camera flash for the 7D?

<p>

Thanks.

<p>

 

...Tom M

[ronald_payne1]

You'll find the answer here and a lot more info, too:http://www.friedmanarchives.com/flash.htm

[tmorgan]

Very good article on this subject, thanks for the referral.

 

After looking at the techniques outlined and reading and poking at the 7D, it looks like the

only technique that should work is the 'put the fill flash at twice the distance from the

subject' method. (I don't have a second flash unit to try it to be sure).

 

...Tom M

[nate_macdonald]

I was very confused by this system when I was first introduced to it, but yes, on both film and digital cameras, the on-camera flash will fire on and off at a very high frequency, using the light as a medium to talk to the wireless flash(es). Unless you're very close to your subject, there shouldn't be any real illumination from the on-camera flash.

[larrybc]

<p>Nate Macdonald , jan 09, 2005; 01:22 p.m.<br>

<i>I was very confused by this system when I was first introduced to it, but yes, on both film and digital cameras, the on-camera flash will fire on and off at a very high frequency, using the light as a medium to talk to the wireless flash(es). Unless you're very close to your subject, there shouldn't be any real illumination from the on-camera flash.</i>

</p>

<p>That's not quite correct. What you describe is accurate for the Ax digital cameras (and presumably the 7D but I don't have one so I can't say for sure). However, the film Maxxums' built-in flash units most definitely provide illumination of the subject AND remote flash control simultaneously. In other words, with a single external flash, I can achieve a 2:1 light ratio because my 7's onboard flash acts as the fill light. This fill is properly metered, too.

</p>

<p>I didn't know that the 7D was incapable of using its built-in flash as a controller and fill-flash. That's really too bad.</p>

<p>

Larry</p>

[tmorgan]

Larry,

 

Right, that is what I am asking/commenting on.

 

The 7 on camera flash absolutely lights the subject, as well as signaling to the remote

flash.

 

This makes it really easy to light a room (for the 'party pictures'). You can move around in

a reasonable area, and get bright area illumination from the remote flash, and a little bit of

light from the on camera flash to fill things in.

 

It's easy and works great.

 

The 7D absolutely *does not*. When you set it to 'wireless', it just signals the remote to

flash. No light comes from the on camera flash in this case.

 

If I figure out something easy to do, I will post it here.

 

...Tom M

[matt hedgecoe]

Tom,

 

The problem you are having is due to the different ways that the Film 7 and Digital 7 meter flash.

 

Both have the standard 14 segment meter for measuring ambient light (which occurs while the mirror is down/shutter closed). The Film 7 has an additional 4 segment meter for measuring flash levels (which occurs when the mirror is up/shutter open). It reads the light being reflected off the film and is able to measure and adjust the flash during the exposure. The Digital 7 does not have this second meter and relies on a pre-flash which is evaluated by the standard 14 segment meter to determine proper flash exposure. Unfortunately, it is the 4 segment meter and the ability to meter the flash DURING exposure that is used to control the ratio flash feature.

 

Unlike a normal slave flash which will fire when it sees another flash, the Minolta flashes rely on an encoded series of flash 'blips' from the built in flash to start and stop them. If the built in flash is set to illuminate the scene, it will not send any signals to the off-camera flash and if it set to control an off-camera flash it will not and any light of its own to the scene (other than the tiny amount created by the control signals). Because the Digital 7 does not support ratio flash, there is no way you will be bale to set the built-in flash to illuminate the scene AND control an external flash.

 

I can't think of a way you're going to be able to get around it.

[jamesdak]

But can the 7D control multiple off camera flashes like the Maxxum 7? If so you might use a couple of off camera flashes for a main and fill light as long as you can manually set the flashes.

[matt hedgecoe]

Jim,

 

I'm not sure if you will be able to use automatic ratio flash using two external flashes as this may still rely upon the camera being able to take a true TTL flash reading during the exposure.

 

I can't see any reason why you cannot use multiple external flashes though. As long as the are all set to the same channel, they will all pick up the control signal from the camera and turn on/off at the same time.

 

Rather than setting the flash levels manually, you could still achieve automatic ratio flash by using both flashes on the same setting and increasing the flash-to-subject distance of one to reduce the light level. An alternative might be to reduce the light output from one flash by rigging something up with a ND filter and some gaffer tape.

[tmorgan]

Matt,

 

Got it, that makes sense (and it's too bad). Thanks for the explanation.

 

Jim,

I am trying things like you suggest; I only have one Minolta flash to play with, though.

I do have a Metz unit and a slave controller.

 

For those who are interested in such, the film 7 SCA adapter *does not* work with the 7D.

Even the wireless mode is different enough to prevent the Metz from working as a wireless

slave.

 

So far, one simple flash thing doesn't work all that well:

-You can use one of those simple slave flash thingees and fiddle with the slave and on

camera settings to get a nice proportion. The settings have to be fiddled with as you

move around the room.

 

(Remember, the goal here was 'party pictures', not great quality lighting control).

 

A thing that does seem to work okay is to:

-Crank up the ISO on the 7D and turn on all the lights in the room, then use slow sync

flash to fill in the room illumination. The auto white balance does pretty good, but the two

sources do have very different color temperatures.

 

I will continue fiddling :-)

 

...Tom M

[nate_macdonald]

larry anon , jan 10, 2005; 04:04 p.m.

 

"That's not quite correct. What you describe is accurate for the Ax digital cameras (and presumably the 7D but I don't have one so I can't say for sure). However, the film Maxxums' built-in flash units most definitely provide illumination of the subject AND remote flash control simultaneously."

 

I checked this out in the manuals, what you say is true with the Maxxum 7, however on the Maxxum 70 the onboard flash works the same as the 7d - ie: control flash only. I also looked at the Maxxum 5 and it's built in flash will support wireless ratio. So I guess it's a mixed bag, depending on the individual camera.

[larrybc]

<p>Nate Macdonald , jan 12, 2005; 11:18 a.m. wrote:<br>

<i>I checked this out in the manuals, what you say is true with the Maxxum 7, however on the Maxxum 70 the onboard flash works the same as the 7d - ie: control flash only. I also looked at the Maxxum 5 and it's built in flash will support wireless ratio. So I guess it's a mixed bag, depending on the individual camera.</i></p>

<p>Ugh. That's really too bad. I love having the ability to use off-camera AND onboard flashes together. I know this may sound overly reactionary but it really is making me reconsider my sticking with Minolta. It's not a BIG deal but it removes another point for Minolta.

</p>

<p>Larry</p>

[tmorgan]

The easiest setup that I've found with the parts I have here is to use the camera with a

flash (either the builtin or the flash gun) with a Metz equipped with an SCA3083 (remote

trigger) adapter as the remote flash.

<br>

The SCA3083 knows about pre-flashes, if you set it correctly.

<br>

I set the Metz to auto and to the aperture I am using and set the on camera flash to -1 or

-2 stops down

<br>

This is pretty close to what was going on with a film 7 and it's wireless ratio flash mode,

certainly good enough for my party pictures. The differences are:

<ul>

<li>remembering to keep the apertures on the flash and the camera in agreement

<br>

<li>the metering is being done by what the flash sees, not the camera

<br>

<br>

</ul>

<br>

I really like Matt's idea of a ND filter and gaffer tape; that should replicate the mode

exactly. I don't have enough parts to try the idea.

<br>

Thanks to everyone for the information and advice.

<br>

...Tom M