Maxxum 7D - $1600...Ouch!

[ShunCheung]

Leslie, if the E1 or 7D look good to you, please go ahead and buy them. Put your money where your month is.

[paul_hancock]

Re lenses

 

I'd recommend the minolta 20mm 2.8 and the 85mm 1.4 -I own both and they are excellent performers. Both are 72mm filter rings as well which is nice.

 

You may wish to look at the 50mm 1.7 in that range as well. It's very inexpensive.

[bill_tuthill]

Ilkka, what are the advantages of the 7D over 20D?

Guess I haven't been following it closely enough. Anyway,

this (or last month) is a good time to pick up used Minolta lenses.

Keeping to size 55 filters, you could get a 24/2.8, 35/2, and 100/2.

The 100/2 might be the sharpest lens Minolta ever produced,

and either 35mm (there's also a 35/1.4) are excellent.

The 20/2.8 takes 72 filters and is quite expensive.

I've heard complaints about barrel distortion in the 24/2.8,

and the 28/2 tests better. I don't own any of these wide-angles

because the Minolta 24-50/4 is so great.

[craig_gillette]

Supply and demand will be at wortk here, slowly or quickly? If the product flies off the shelves at $1600, then why expect it to fall? OTOH, there is a lot of disappointment being expressed, even by Minolta fans that this is too high a price, and that many will wait for the prices to fall some. Although the "powers that be" watch these forums, they make up their minds on, well whatever it is that drives them.

 

The price may be "reasonable" for the gadget freaks (said lovingly) who have decided some frame of reference which values all the various features: points for lcd size, points for continuous shooting rates, points for viewfinder, etc., etc. And then toting up points, figure it's more points than the D70 but less than the 20D, but then still does some things better (or worse) than the various competitors, so the price "fits."

 

For the retailer and hobbyist, even with some existing Minolta gear, they have to ask themselves, can we live with an $800 differential with the Canon Digital Rebel? Sure I've got some existing Minolta gear. For a newbie? That's $800 to be spent on lenses, flash, etc.

 

I never stressed the functionality of my Maxxum 5 when it came to all of the potential bells and whistles. I think I'm going to have to get in the wait and see line for a while and will not plunk down any kind of deposit yet. I've waited this long. I can wait longer if needed. I hope Minolta hasn't over-estimated the patience and loyalty of it's current base nor over-estimated the fickleness of users from other camps. This isn't going to attract many (any?) beginners.

[tom_montemarano]

Bill,

It is essentially a Maxxum 7 with digital sensor. It does have some shortcomings, particularly the lower max shutter speed and lower max sync speed (1/160) compared with the 7's (1/200). But photos on image resource and dpreview.com are very good even at high ISO. And AS on all of your existing Minolta lenses, is a pretty nice feature. It also has a large, bright Maxxum 7 like viewfinder. There are a number of other features which can be seen in the operator manuals (2 sections) available from the link below:

 

http://kmpi.konicaminolta.us/eprise/main/kmpi/content/cam/cam_manual/cam_manual_Attachments/Maxxum_7D_E_A_Part1.pdf

 

http://kmpi.konicaminolta.us/eprise/main/kmpi/content/cam/cam_manual/cam_manual_Attachments/Maxxum_7D_E_A_Part2.pdf

 

Whether or not its right for each person is hard to tell. I have a number of reasons why I'd like to get a DSLR. But the previously available Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc cameras have offered me too little camera for too much price. Most have been fairly stripped down versions of film cameras with digital film built in. For example, Canon would be embarrassed to offer the AF that is in their low and mid level digital cameras in one of their film cameras.

 

The Maxxum 7D seems to be a digital sensor wrapped in a real camera for not much more than the other companies have sold their stuff (although, I'd still like to see some object tests on its performance). However, the price of digital (Maxxum 7D or competitor) is more than I care to spend on photographic equipment at this time. If I really needed a digital SLR, the 7D is the first mid level camera that offers me all the features that I expect in a camera (including spot meter), plus as Minolta tends to do, those features that I might dream of, including AS on all my lenses, (100mm f/2.8 Macro AS, 70-210 f/3.5-4.5 AS, 24-104 D-AS, 100-300 D-AS, 135-400 AS, and even 35mm f/2 AS.)

 

Tom

[andrew robertson]

To declare a camera that isn't even out yet as 'much more' of a camera than ones that you

can acutely purchase RIGHT NOW is a little crazy. The in-body AS mechanism is attractive.

Aside from that, there's little to be gained over the Canon and Nikon competitors.

 

I always found Minolta AF stuff to be a little whizzy for my taste. If you are invested in

Minolta, though, it makes perfect sense. I just can't see Joe Consumer paying $1600 for a

6MP Minolta when the competition is selling their 6MP models for 50% as much. A 300D

and the 28-135 IS would still cost less than the 7D alone - and most folks won't really use

much beyond a standard zoom.

[tom_montemarano]

Andrew wrote:

"To declare a camera that isn't even out yet as 'much more' of a camera than ones that you can acutely purchase RIGHT NOW is a little crazy. The in-body AS mechanism is attractive. Aside from that, there's little to be gained over the Canon and Nikon competitors.

I always found Minolta AF stuff to be a little whizzy for my taste. If you are invested in Minolta, though, it makes perfect sense. I just can't see Joe Consumer paying $1600 for a 6MP Minolta when the competition is selling their 6MP models for 50% as much. A 300D and the 28-135 IS would still cost less than the 7D alone - and most folks won't really use much beyond a standard zoom."

 

Your comment makes a lot of sense for those who really want a digital sensor wrapped in any SLR type of body. For those who want certain camera features that happens to have a digital sensor that can produce prints of the quality desired, it doesn't.

 

I selected my film camera after a number of years of using and trying different brands and models. I had specifically tried the rebel 2000 and the elan 7 and felt that they had operating and user characteristics that I didn't like. Obviously, many people disagree with me because they are popular cameras. (As I told my Mom when I was a kid - 'Mom if you want to wear it buy it, but I'm not interested') I also don't believe that many EOS 3 users would joyously choose to replace their 3 with a rebel 2000.

 

I chose the Maxxum 7 because it has a number of features that make my photography more successful and enjoyable. A few simple ones are its spot meter, fast AF, bright high mag viewfinder, and user interface. The major feature lacking for some of my photography is lens stabilization.

 

When Canon released the D30, D60, DRebel and D10, I checked them out, but found that while the 'film' was excellent, I did not enjoy the cameras, which while similar to the lower and mid range cameras, had poorer AF (which was extremely surprising since AF is such a strong point for Canon film cameras). I have not tried the 20D yet, but I don't like the AF sensor arrangement, and I believe it still doesn't have a spot meter. Again, many people like the 20's AF arrangement and don't care for a spot meter. Fine.

 

While I see a number of advantages of digital for me, I don't 'need' a digital camera. So there has been no reason for me to spend 2 to 3 times the cost of my film camera to replace it with a lower capability body.

 

When KM announced in February that they were going to produce a DSLR based on the Maxxum 7 I got interested. However, I have also seen many manufacturers say they are making a new product based on one I like, but then leave out some features that I personnaly want. So I wasn't holding my breath. The latest Minolta film camera (Maxxum 70) was also supposed to be based on the Maxxum 7, but unfortunately left out a number of features I felt important. So I was not convinced that Minolta would get it right.

 

AS was a feature that I felt would be very useful because it would make (assuming that it worked as advertised) all of my lenses stabilized. I felt this was a prime point for me since I would not have to replace my longer glass and would have the advantage of a stabilized macro lens (something I can't get from either Canon or Nikon). However, I still hadn't seen any actual tests or photographic results.

 

Recently, there have been some posting of photos showing that AS does work (but still not objective, comparative tests), a number of low light and high ISO photos that I have downloaded and printed, reports by users I trust regarding its AF speed and viewfinder, and the actual user manual (as opposed to an advertising brochure) that shows not only what it can do, but what the user has to do to make it work.

 

Based on all that, 6MP are sufficient for what I need (printing 11x14 cropped photos with minimal upsizing and cropped 8x10s with no upsizing, low noise, great color and sharpness. So the 'film' looks good. The camera body seems, based on the above, to actually be a Maxxum 7 body with the limitations mentioned in the previous post and with the features I use in my 7. What's left?

 

As you mentioned its not on the market yet, due in a couple of weeks. There haven't been any formal tests yet. I haven't handled it to see if it is what I now expect. Those all have to occurr before I would buy. If its not all that it seems, then there is still no DSLR that I care to buy. And then I'll wait to see if any manufacturer gets it right. But right now, the 7D comes the closest (based on manufacturer claims and limited user reports), whereas the others don't come close, based on manufacturer claims, my handling, and more user reports.

 

To get all I want in a camera body from Canon would require one of the 1D series (or an EOS 3D equivalent), but I don't need the larger sensor or pixel count or the machine gun frame rate, and have no desire to pay what Canon is asking for those cameras. So for me, and maybe some others, the 7D is a bargain compared to the 1D class, not excessively priced compared to the Drebel.

 

Tom

 

[._._z]

Not only is $1,600 expensive, but it's for a version 1.0 iteration of untested SLR

hardware, for which early adopters may find themselves unpaid bug-testers.

 

Minolta might have a product with perceived benefits, but it's way behind in the

marketplace and needed to offer a product to regain market-share. This body won't do

it.

[phi_pham]

ditto that. i was going to get it but its more than the friggin canon 20d with the 8mp sensor.

 

well i settled on a 10d for 800.00

 

KM's marketing plan: Screw the faithful, get their money then drop the price for the general audience?

 

well this is another example why canon= #1.

 

with marketing geniuses like that, anybody wnat to start a KM dead pool?--im good for a couple bucks.

[m.l]

Correction.

 

As well as an extra 200 euro for the VC, I just learned that I also would need a new flash, as my 5400HS (a very professional and positive unit) is as good as worthless on the new 7D. I seriously doubt that I will venture into Minolta-digital country in the near future. Just too expensive at this moment.

Is it a technical impossibility to build a digital camera that can handle the 'old' VC-7 and the 'old' flash units? Or is this just a way to get money out of the pockets of all trusty minolta-users? Well, I think that my film-camera's and my scanner still will have quite some work to do.

[ilkka_nissila]

Bill, the 7D has 0.9x viewfinder magnification (while the D70 has 0.7x and a truly miserable mirror prism and focusing screen), which makes all the difference between being able to see facial expressions or not, being able to visually confirm the subject is precisely in focus, and if necessary, focus manually. Manual focusing on plant close-ups with the d70 takes minutes before I'm confident I've taken at least one shot which is in focus, and on moving subjects like people on the streets, the success rate is of the order of 30% for focusing alone. With a larger viewfinder and less handicapped focusing system, I would expect 90-100% correct focusing rate in these situations, with my film bodies I get near 100%.

 

That alone makes the camera worth far more than its price to me. The anti-shake feature may be worth gold if it works as it probably does. Nikon and Canon make no fast primes with IS/VR and there would be optical compromises if they did, which I don't want. I want to have this feature for available light shooting in interior spaces, and such. If it works for teles too, that's a great bonus but I don't plan to purchase long lenses from K-M since I have a pretty extensive Nikon system. I just want a reasonably priced camera which has similar focusing and viewing ability to mid-range film cameras (around $400) for the intermediate term when Nikon is unable or willing to sell mid-priced DSLRs with useable focusing characteristics, and use the anti-shake as an added benefit which gives me a reason for long-term use of the camera in specialized situations where I might need image stabilization.

[nate_macdonald]

Hmmm...the price at adorama didn't mention a 2500 flash or grip. I know that's how Minolta was marketing the camera, but perhaps they chose not to include it. I would also expect the pre-order price to be higher than the eventual retail price. The instore pre-order price at Henry's was $2200 (cdn) with a flash, a 24-80 lens and the grip. They're advertising it on their website for $2500 (cdn), without the lens. Maybe we should start taking bids on the price, eh? :)

If they're including a flash, grip and a lens, I think you're getting a lot more for your money than the 20d or the D70.

[bob_lazzarini]

Amazon.com has a price of $1,599.95 for the body only, stating that it will be released on November 30, 2004.<p>

Now where did I put that piggy bank?<p>

Cheers!

[david_bedell]

"Minolta might have a product with perceived benefits, but it's way behind in the marketplace and needed to offer a product to regain market-share. This body won't do it."

 

So what would it take to regain marketshare other than producing a camera that has features the competition does not have? Isn't that how a market works?

 

Ikkla's arguments--that the 7D does have very compelling features--are quite strong.

 

I get the feeling that if the sensor was 8 megapixels instead of 6 noone would be criticizing the camera's specification. Not that people get caught up in megapixels. ;-)

[._._z]

People buy items with an overall perceived benefit -- in terms of price anbd

capabilities. Minolta, quite behind in the DSLR race, and having lost ground and

customers to other brands, needed to offer something compelling in both categories.

As with Olympus, which also offers a DSLR with unique features, I don't see that

happening here, and, as we see with Olympus sales, I doubt that Minolta will be seen as

particularly impressive or competitive.

 

As for Ikkla's arguments, if you have followed his history of postings he is very much

the fanboy, defending his prediliections and purchases over and over. His arguments

are not persuasive to me.

[ilkka_nissila]

Bailey, I do bring out my opinions on the viewfinder matter quite frequently.

 

Perhaps you would like to clarify what a "fanboy" is? It's not in my dictionary.

[ilkka_nissila]

Yes, 8 MP vs. 6 MP is like 5 fps vs. 4 -> ie., of little importance.

[bill_tuthill]

Thanks Ilkka and Tom! I've learned more from this thread than from

all the other stuff I've read about the 7D. With regard to lenses,

my 24-50/4 and 70-120/4 make a great kit for film, but I don't know

how they'll perform with CCD, and 35-75 (1.5x crop factor) is longer

than I like. The 17-35/3.5 G and 70-200/2.8 SSM would make a good

pairing (both take 77 filters) but they are expensive and it's a big

gap from 35-70 (52-105 equivalent). Nikon has a good 18-70/3.5-4.5

DX, although no long zoom to match filters with it.

[._._z]

Learn how to use a search engine. <p>

 

<u><A href = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy>"Fanboy"</a></u>

[david_bedell]

I guess this forum isn't moderated...

[andrew robertson]

I don't intend to write off the 7D completely. The in-body AS is a very nice feature, and

the viewfinder might be nice too (although it will be darker than a lower-mag finder). If I

already had Minolta gear it would be great! A one time fee, and then all my lenses are

stabilized!

 

I don't think it's enough to make folks switch systems. It may be tempting for the new

buyer, and would be very tempting for the die-hard Minolta fans that have been staying

loyal to the cause these past five years.

[mark_k3]

I think this is a very good price, for a hobbist like me. One thing has to be sure, how much better quality we can have from 7D than from D70? Using essentially the same chip with some modification make me highly suspicious about the claimed image quality. However with regard to body build quality, AS, view finder, 7D should not be priced anything lower than 1000. If there is any machine to cost less than that, that should be the job for 5D

[ilkka_nissila]

I don't think the image quality is going to be much different from that of the D70 which is very good. If anything, Nikon may have a slight edge in lenses. However, many of my D70 images are out of focus, and that's a big problem, which the 7D solves. So in that sense it will deliver better image quality.

[peter_henry1]

Well the price for the 7D is now known for New Zealand. I have found the price at two stores and one is $2200 and the other is $2250. New Zealand Dollars naturally, body only. That's approx US$1500.

[ted_white2]

I've got my Maxxum 7 with VC-7 vertical control grip on ebay because I'm going to buy the 7D. I've got Maxxum lenses I've acquired over the years and the two 7000 bodies I bought in 1985 when Minolta's AF system was first introduced. I'll get by with the old (and still working perfectly) bodies and primes until the 7D comes down in price, probably about this time next year. From what I can tell, the 7D body appears virtually identical to the 7, which is a superb camera with lightning fast AF. But I'm selling the 7 now because I don't think it'll bring as much in a year. Also, I'm teaching an intro to black and white film photography at the local college and the student requirement is a manually focusing camera. So I've picked up a Spotmatic II and a Minolta SRT101 in order not to intimidate the students. What fun to get back to real metal-bodies cameras! (Never had an SRT101 before. Heavy little beast..)