Spotmeter Readings & Shooting For Highlights

[scott_fleming1]

I want to get those specular highlights just right. I just got my

first spotmeter the Minolta F and it says open up 2.3 stops for

highlights. Seems an awful lot. I plan to do a lot of shots with

water in them and often moving water and I'd like to try some

backlit or strongly sidelit shots. Yes I know this will require a

lot of experimentation and this I will surely do. I'm just trying

to get an idea of where to start. If I can cut off a few bucks in

the experimentation stage that's a few bucks I can spend on filters

(my next things on the list). What suggestions would you give?

Open even more for side lighting? BAcklighting? Cut down the

spread with polarizing filters? Iv'e already figured out that a

neutral density filter looks like a must. Even today the meter is

telling me I have over six stops of latitude out there ... and it's

very cloudy. All my shooting but for polaroid experimentation shots

will be with Velvia and Provia. And I don't have a Polaroid holder

yet.

[dave_schneider]

I'm a bit confused, if you have a scene with 6 stops range why would a neutral density filter help? It's only going to lower the whole scene by the value of the ND filter. I'm not sure what the instructions for your meter are saying about opening up 2.3 stops for highlights. The whole purpose of the spot meter is to meter the highlights and shadows and expose to place the values where you need them.

[scott_fleming1]

Well I thought neutral density filters (I left out the word split of graduated) were to bring the bright sky down a bit. Part of my questin was regarding the veracity of 2.3 stops. Seems a lot. This is the amount the Minolta Spot F automatically adjusts the reading when you press the H button.

[john_randall3]

Hi Scott,

 

What seems to work for me, at least as a starting point, is to

separate the light and dark areas of the scene into zones. I

know you just purchased that meter, and may not have had the

time to figure out how you are going to convert those readings

into zones, and from that , into lens settings. I believe a zone

system sticker can be purchased that you can apply to your

meter. This may be helpful to you when you decide where the

light and dark areas are going to end up on your meter, thus on

your transparency. Try Calumet.

 

As far as the latitude of the scene versus the latitude of the film

stock: Yeah! Now it is going to get interesting. Most transparency

film has, what, three stops of latitude. You're gonna have to

decide where to compromise. And those choices are often

different for each scene.

 

I would try shooting for the highlights, when using color

transparency film, and let the shadows fall where they will. The

question persists, of course, as to the 'placement' of those

highlights. How "light" are you going to make the highlights.

That's why a study of zone system values may be helpful here.

 

I'll leave the rest to your continuing study of the photo.net

archives.

 

Best regards,

[david_goldfarb]

Well, there are both ND filters and ND grads, hence the confusion. ND grads are very useful with transparency film.

 

For color slide film, if I want detail in the highlights, I generally place them about 1.5 stops above neutral. Experiment and take notes to see what works with the film/processing you're using.

[brian_ellis3]

Specular highlights - which usually means highlights like the brightest spot of chrome on a sun lit car bumper - are usually ignored in the metering process. They're so bright relative to everything else in the scene that the photograph becomes distorted if you try to take them into consideration in planning your exposure or development. Normally you would meter the brightest highlight in which you want detail to appear and let the specular highlights (which by definition contain no detail) fall wherever they fall.

 

Opening up 2.3 stops from a meter reading of the brightest object in which you're interested seems about right. In zone system terms that will move the tone of the object up from approximately 18% gray (the approximate meter reading) to 2.3 stops above 18% gray, which is pretty close to pure white assuming normal development.

[eugene_singer]

Scott, the easiest way to use the Minolta Spotmeter F is to aim the one degree spot circle in the viewfinder at an 18% grey (Zone V) area in the scene and use that reading for the basic exposure (the way Jack Dykinga describes in his book). The surface of a body of water, expanses of green grass, etc. are close to 18% grey. The S and H buttons on the meter are calibrated for color transparency film. For B&W film, I usually aim the meter's spot at the darkest area in the scene where I want some detail to show, take a reading, and close down two stops. That places the shadow exposure in Zone III. Then,I read the brightest area in the scene, determine the number of stops between the darkest and brightest areas, and adjust my developing time to match. A five stop spread gets normal development. Less than a five stop spread gets N+ development, and more than five stops gets N- development. This is the simplified Zone system method that Steve Simmons describes in his book. It works for me.

[leonard_evens]

I think that a spotmeter is wasted if you don't use some version of the Zone System. That is usually described as being useful for b/w photography with adjustments being made for exposure and development, but its basic principles also help you understand exposure. If are doing color, then the development is going to be standard. If the speed is set properly, then the same reading on your meter will always produce the same intensity in your slide or negative. You have to have some idea of what you want those intensities to be. Forget about filters and first learn to use the meter with standard scenes. As someone else pointed out, don't pay attention to specular highlights since those will normally exceed the range of your scene. Check the deepest shadows in which you expect detail and similarly for the highlights. The proper exposure will be somewhere in between, but

exactly where will depend on the scene.

[andrew_oneill]

A few years ago I was fooling around with pre-exposure of positive films (povia and velvia). It seemed to work fine. I also found that by slipping in a light yellow filter, I was able to reduce the blue cast in the shadows. Pre-exposure is great to add density to your shadows while adding tiny wee bit to high lights.

[eugene_singer]

Scott,

 

P.S. If you are reading more than a four, or five stop spread on an overcast day, you aren't aiming the meter at the proper high and low light areas. Specular highlights are too bright to attempt to obtain detail. Look for areas, not small points of light.

[bernhard]

I'm not sure what your question is.

 

If it is how to meter for highlights, that you want to be rendered with detail: Spot meter it and give 1 or 2 stops more exposure, depending on the latitude of your film and how you want to render it.

 

If it is how to meter for highlights that you want to be rendered as specular highlights (= small spots of blown out highlights, absolutely white) this much more difficult and simple at the same time. If you meter the specular highlights, it would seem sufficient to give 3 or more stops more exposure than indicated by this measurement, but unfotunately this gives you a very bad idea about the proper exposure for the rest of the scene, which is more important. So I'd just measure the main scene (whichever approach works for you) and let the specular highlights fall where they may. It's not so critical if they are 1 or 5 stops out of the dynamic range of your medium (=overexposed). They can however bleed into surrounding areas if given too much exposure. If they are not sufficiently white for you on the other hand, you can always work on this in the darkroom, so when in doubt, I'd rather go for less exposure.

[ralph_barker]

Graduated ND filters are helpful with both B&W and color film in reducing the luminance difference between the sky and the ground, but mostly with relatively flat horizon lines. Scenes with jutting mountains and such need to be composed and handled differently (otherwise, the tops of the mountains are darkened, too).

 

As to your other metering situations, Scott, it will be helpful to understand some of the basic concepts of the Zone System - at least as to the spread of luminance values in the scene. Remember, too, that the refelective meter reading is telling you the exposure to render the metered area as a middle gray (or the color equivalent) - about equal to an 18% gray card or a Zone V in Zone System terms. Opening up from that reading pushes that area up on the Zone scale, toward white. So, in your example, opening up 2.3 stops would place that area at Zone VII.3, about right for white with good detail.

 

The basic advantage of the spot meter is that you can determine the spread of luminance values, and adjust your exposure according to how you want to render the scene, and any other methods you might want to employ, such as expanding or compressing contrast via adjusted development (i.e. the N+x and N-x Zone System development methods). With color film, your choices are limited - in scenes with luminance values that exceed the range of the film, either highlights or shadows (or, both) need to be sacrificed, or supplemental lighting added to bring the scene to within the range of the film. Supplemental lighting isn't practical for landscapes, but can be for people in the foreground. Velvia, for example, is quite contrasty and is usually considered to have less of a luminance range than Provia.

 

With sidelighting and backlighting situations, you need to decide what areas are critical to maintain detail, and expose accordingly, or add supplemental lighting (flash or reflectors) for foreground objects. The "halo area" of a backlit object, for example, can easily read 5 or more stops above the shadow area facing the lens, and would usually be expected to be "blown out". How much is a matter of taste, but some caution is required to avoid flare in that situation.

 

As Brian and others have mentioned, ignore the true spectral highlights from a metering perspective. By definition, they will be well beyond the range of the film. Just be cautious that the spectral highlights aren't excessive, and don't cause flare as a result of being included in the scene. A polarizing filter may help in some situations, but not in others - it depends on what the reflection is coming from.

 

Depending on what you are shooting, you may also benefit from getting a good studio lighting book, such as "Lighting - Science and Magic" (if I recall the title correctly) by Fuqua and someone else. Then, see how much of the studio concepts can also be applied to what you are shooting in the field. Although portable electronic flash units and reflectors aren't often associated with LF photography, don't ignore the possibilities.

[jim_galli4]

Scott, If you've got specular highlights like sun glinting on water or a chrome hood element etc. Don't bother trying to measure them. They'll take care of themselves. Rather get the important picture elements "placed" where they need to be to make your negative say what you want it to say. Specular highlights will usually be off the scale. 90 % of your picture info should fall in the Zone IV thru Zone VI area. It's normal to have to make compromises to make that happen. Cloudy days are nice because stretching that area out is easier than trying to compact it on a sunny day. (B/W films) With Chrome film I look real hard at Z4 1/2 Z5 and Z5 1/2 and let the rest fall as it will. You can't do much about it anyway with chromes. Get the important part placed right.

[scott_walton2]

There is a good bit of difference between specular and highlight. A specular

highlight is usually base white and they are most times small. Meter for the

highlight surrounding the specular... remembering that the spot meter is 18%,

opening up 2 stops isn't really out of the norm.

When using your spot, there again remembering 18%, opening up 1 stop will

be good for a caucasian and no need for a ND filter!

[scott_fleming1]

Good stuff, good stuff, good stuff. As usual I'm printing this whole thread out for study and future reference. I actually went out and made four whole images today. Well I pushed the plunger four times (not counting the three times I pushed it and had forgotten to cock the shutter) anyway. One of the first two shots I realized I forgot to let the bail down and I probably have a light leak there. I think it was not untill the fourth shot that I ralized I had not metered the sky which was in the upper 1/4 of my frame so the first three shots are probably overexposed or at least will have a white sky. There was a forest of tree limbs up there too so maybe they shaded things enough to save me. I was shooting a deep green pool under bare cypress trees in full sun but with a lot of shadows thrown by branches but not really shade. Can't wait to throw them on the light table.

 

I had not read this thread untill I got back and of course it told me all kinds of things I needed to know. On one shot, the last, I actually did my own thing and opened up only one stop so perhaps I will get one decent exposure out of the deal. Sure felt good just to find something worth pointing the camera at and put myself through the excercises however.

 

I can't thank everybody enough for all the help you have given me in this thread. Metering for this shameless former auto-everything-camera user is more intimidating that LF itself. I'm glad I got the simpler Minolta as opposed to the Sekonic. I'll need a year or so to work up to one of those things. They just do too much for a rank beginner like me.

[steve_hamley]

Scott,

 

I think you've got good advice. Here's what I use for color transparencies: brightest area where you want detail, +1.7 stops. Lowest pure white is about +2 stops.

 

Thanks!

 

Steve

[ken_schroeder]

Scott, please take this in a constructive spirit. I think you are at the wheel of a Corvette when you haven't quite mastered basic driving. The "few bucks" you might save will cost you plenty later. I recommend you get a copy of Fred Picker's Zone VI Workshop. Parts of it are dated, and it is geared toward black and white, but the technique in it is very solid, including the metering portion. I'm pleased to add my voice to the choir recommending you forget about filters. You have a lot of basics to learn. If you are willing to take the time (and bucks) to really learn photography instead of going on a buying spree like most of us have done at some time or all the time, you will find your images increasingly satisfying. You can learn a lot from having a favorite nearby place to photograph. Don't think of it as repetition; think of it as an opportunity to hone your skills. Make careful and extensive notes of a scene you photograph. Bracket that scene. Your transparencies or prints will tell the tale. Photograph that same scene in various lighting conditions. Early morning, noon, afternoon, last night, Kodachrome sunny day, cloudy, etc. Learn about light. Make careful notes of your meter readings. Learn how your film performs in different light. Be deliberate in this. Do not hurry the learning process. Learn to judge light with your eyes. I have a Soligor one degree spot meter. I bought it in 1981 and it has been a useful tool ever since. My way of using it is rather unorthodox. I set the exposure, expose the film, and then (sometimes) pull out the meter. If the meter agrees with my eye, I close up shop. If not, I'll make a second exposure at the metered reading. I used to set the exposure and then get the meter out before exposing any film. I think it is important to commit myself on film before looking at the meter. Don't expect every film to be properly exposed. Do expect every sheet of film to be a focused learning experience. You will soon become proficient and your meter will be a valued collegue instead of a master. About thirteen years ago I spent a week in Rome. One of my photographic fantasies had been to spend a week in a European city with just a Leica and 50mm lens like Cartier Bresson. I did just that. I packed the Leica with 50 mm lens and lots of Tri X. I think I brought along a K2 and UV filters, which I did not use. One camera, one lens, and lots of film. No meter. All the negatives were printable. You can learn photography. It will not be an instant process. However, if you are serious, the work is rewarding.

[bernhard]

There is one thing that this thread really got wrong: Metering is simple! Very simple. Everybody who thinks he needs a year to understand how to meter has to take a deep breath, sit down and tell himself "Metering is simple".<br><br>

[puuhhhhhhh] (deep breath)<br><br>

1.

Put as much brightness range into the dynamic range of your film as possible. (If necessary use a grad. ND or different film/development, butmore about that later.) Therefore:<br><br>

2. If you use slide film avoid overexposure. Meter for the picture relevant highlights that should not be blown out and give more exposure but not more than 1 or 2 stops more than the spotmeter of that region said.<br><br>

3. If you use negative film avoid underexposure. Meter for the picture relevant shadows that should not be black and give less exposure, but not more than 2 or 3 stops less than the spotmeter of that region said.<br><br>

4. Take an incident meter reading, if you can, to check if you are totally off. If there is a big difference between the spot calculated and incident exposure, redo both measurements and calculation. If the difference is still more than 2 stops, bracket between these values.<br><br>

5. If after several attempts and/or one or two months you still get exposures that are <B>totally</B> off, pick XP2 or a different hobby.<br><br>

6. If your pictures are exposed OK but too contrasty/flat consider grad NDs/higher contrast film respectively (slide film) or look into the zone system (negative film). <br><br>

7. If you want more precise control over how the scene is translated into a film image, look into the zone system.<br><br>

Final rant: Anyone with an IQ above room temperature should be able to comprehend points 1. - 4. within a few weeks and some thinking. If you feel you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, read up <a href="http://www.photo.net/making-photographs/exposure">here</a>. If after reading this you still don't have a clue, put your camera in program mode or stop wasting film.

[scott_fleming1]

Thanks for the help.

 

I was referring to the complexity of the Sekonic 608 with my one year comment. I agree with your assertion that anyone with a brain should be able to pick up metering in a couple weeks of serrious study/shooting. I had not held one of these things before day before yesterday and I got it to work pretty good on the first attempt. It's just very strange at first when you have never used a meter at all. Heck I had to read the black and white cat thing several times before it made sense.

[scott_fleming1]

****Scott, please take this in a constructive spirit. I think you are at the wheel of a Corvette when you haven't quite mastered basic driving. ****

 

You got that right. But it's so much more fun learning to drive in a corvette than in dad's Lincoln Towncar. :))

 

I like what you said. Can't argue with that kind of logic. I'm still hoping that I can cut the experimentation phase from 1000 images to 500 or so. Maybe I'm totally wrong and in the end only trial and error will get the job done. Don't know yet.

[emrys]

I don't know whether this thread is still 'alive' or not, but on the off chance that someone out there is still listening I thought I would contribute some random thoughts from my own cluttered pile.

 

1. The advice above about looking into the Zone system is worth pursuing. Although originally formulated for black and white film, the Zone system is still very useful for shooting on color transparency simply for giving an understanding of placement if nothing else (you can't really apply the development side of the Zone system to color photography).

 

2. If you're shooting water using long exposures and you want to hold detail in those highlights, then a polariser is your friend. It will effectively act as a 2 stop ND filter (NOTE: not a grad) and it will cut down the specular highlights which might otherwise end up blown out.

 

3. I have a Minolta F too. I will say this: 2.3 stops above mid tone is where the brightest whites live on Velvia. Don't hope to record any color here. Similarly, 2.7 stops below mid tone is where the deepest greys live. Don't hope to record color here either.

 

4. If you are planning on backlit shots then you will have to sacrifice shadow detail. Accept this. Plan your shots carefully so that you don't have huge areas of blacked out nothingness. Sidelit shots should work just fine and for the most part you should be able to record most of the tones in the scene.

 

I was planning to include some information about how to meter specific subject but then I remembered that people's taste's differ (and that's ultimately what that comes down to). I encourage you therefore to experiment and take notes. Sure it's a pain and will seem like wasted effort at the time, but from my own experience I can promise you that it will pay dividends.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Mike

[ken_schroeder]

Scott..enjoy the corvette! (but don't forget to learn the basics along the way.) To continue your comment about how much fun it is to learn to drive the corvette, don't sell yourself short on the fun by not learning to drive stick shift. I repeat my recommendation about purchasing Fred Picker's book. It should be part of your permanent reference library. Find a set of his newsletters. His videos are good, too, especially of your are not a book oriented person. (Use them with his book and newsletters, not instead of them) Fred worked in black and white, but that doesn't lessen the importance of his teaching for you. Ansel Adams' technical series should be on the bookshelf of every serious photographer. So should Norm Kerr's book on light. As mentioned in another response, your spot meter without an understanding of the zone system is like a corvette without a road. Learning to use your new meter should not require a year. However, if you jump around and do not focus your learning effort, you will join the many who have no real clue about using a meter after many years. If you have allocated 500 of 1000 sheets of film to learn to use your meter, you are planning to make the same mistakes over and over. Ignore the Kodak table (I find it doesn't work for me.) On the brightest day you are likely to encounter where you live set up your camera on a scene in full sun with some white areas in full light and some dark areas in the shadows. I have a friend with a white truck who uses his truck as the subject to get the white paint in sun and the black tires in shade. Set your aperture for f22. Set your shutter for the fastest speed you have and expose one sheet. Set the shutter speed one speed slower at a time and expose sheets. 1/15 is plenty long, so stop there. Don't change the f22 setting. You have used only six sheets of film. Have them processed and look carefully at the results. Transparencies and black and white proofs don't lie, but color printing which automatically tries to correct can cloud the issue. Your transparencies or prints should range from too light to too dark. Note the one which best portrays the scene. If, for example the sheet exposed at 1/60 seems right to you, then you have learned that with your equipment and choice of film 1/60 @f22 will be the correct exposure for your brightest days. The next time out on the same kind of day, your Key Day (Fred Picker's word) exposure will be the same. On that day you will only need one sheet of film. Since you have determined the exposure for the brightest days you are likely to encounter in your area, cloudy and dull days can only require more light. Set up the same scene on a slightly cloudy day. Set your exposure for the Key Day setting. Expose a sheet at that exposure as a reference point. No need to expose film at any faster speeds than Key Day. Expose three more sheets at the same f22 and the next three slower shutter speeds. Examine the results and note the settings which look right in the trans/print. In just two sessions and ten sheets of film you have learned exposure for Key Days and cloudy bright days. Congratulations, you are now in the top fifth of the class. Does this mean you should not have bought your spot meter? Not at all. You will find images where you want to portray something like the delicate texture of a white dress or the grain of a dark wood in shade. This is where your knowledge of the zone system, your film and meter come into play. You are getting into the poetry of 4x5. Fred Picker had a favorite expression, "one foot on the rock". Learning exposure by doing the Key Day exercises will give you that one foot on the rock and allow you to develop in your own way.

[pete_andrews]

Work it out Scott. Meters are calibrated for either a 12.5 or 18% midgrey. Now 100% divided by 18% is 5.555, and if you multiply the exposure by that factor, you'll find it's the equivalent of 2.5 stops (not 2.3).<p>Specular highlights are definitely not the thing to expose for though. Since they're a direct reflection of the lightsource, it'd be like exposing for the sun or for your keylight. Tame them with a polariser, or just let them go. Otherwise you'll end up with a very flat negative, or one with just a few speckles of light exposed on it.<p>At this stage I'd advise you to simply decide which area of the picture you want to appear as midgrey in the print, and take a single reading off that area. When you get to know your metering techniques a bit more thoroughly, then you can get more adventurous. Until then KISS.

[scott_fleming1]

Ralph, Jim, Scott, Steve, Ken, Mike & Pete:

 

You guys are just too much. It is truly amazing how this board works. I've read and read, studied and studied but somwhow just asking a couple questions brings things out in a way here that makes so much more sense. Again, I can't thank you all enough.

 

Let me ask just one more question. What do you do with the sky? In my shots yesterday it was always about 1.4 to 1.6 stops brighter than my highlights.

[bernhard]

If the freaking sky is brighter than your "highlights" than the "highlights" are not the highlights, because the sky is, because it is the brightest thing in the scene that you want to render with detail. So if you shoot slide film, meter the sky. Look <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/432686">here</a> for an example and an explanation how I metered in the comments.