Speedlight with softbox - practicalities

[RaymondC]

<p>Hi all</p>

<p>In time but maybe not so soon I would like to get some decent lights for proper portraiture of friends and family and do what other fun I can get like product photography as a hobby learning exercise (indoors plugin to the wall type). Then I know people at my camera club and well obviously online re: speedlights such as the cheap and cheeful Yongnuo's. Could be nice and small to be used outside and inside for the meantime.</p>

<p>If I am not wanting to overpower the sun. Under a overcast day or under the trees with a softbox am I able to light half body shots with 2 or 3 adults? Also what is the maximum size softbox would you recommend? I would be using a single speedlight.</p>

<p>Cheers.</p>

[paul_k1664875007]

<p>To begin with, why a softbox? Sure, every online expert makes it an absolute necessicity. But looking at it from a practical point of view, it's big (so apart from the softbox you'll need a sturdy lightstand to avoid the whole contracption from falling over. And I'm not even talking about using it outside inder windy conditions). Also it absorbs a lot of light (which with a single speedlight will either mean having to shoot wide open, or using high ISO, and/or long recycle times).</p>

<p>The intended purpose of a softbox is to create soft light (hence of course the name) you'll, unless you use a big one, have to put it real close by to get that 'softer light https://photoflex.com/index.php?/pls/understanding-how-soft-boxes-work. And especicially when using a large size one, that when used with a single speedlight automatically will mean the afore mentioned problems with the usable apterure, and recycle times.<br /> Of course you can use a small softbox instead, but as illustrated in the enclosed link, that defies the whole exercise of using a softbox, since, especially when used at a longer distance (which inevitably will be the case when you want to lighten a small group of people, even if only at half body), the light actually becomes harder (instead of the intended 'soft').<br /> <br />Also, even if the light of a softbox is, if used at the 'correct' distance, is soft, it's also directional, so shadows are more pronounced and deeper, and unless looked for, will need additional fill in, possibly a reflection screen, or even another softbox (although that will of course risk an 'arms race' stacking up one fill light against the mainlight, and yet another fill light to fill in the shadows then created, etc. etc.)</p>

<p>Especially since you're a beginner with this, I would spend your money wisely and sparsely. Juts get a lightstand, with a speedlight/umbrella adapter, and an umbrella (white will give softer light, silver more directional, although compared to a softbox positioned too far away still soft, and with a higher efficiency)</p>

<p>Sure, I can here the 'experts' sharpening their knives over the fact that umbrella's give a soft undirectional light, but that very characteristic makes it much easier for a beginner to work with (much less issues with unwanted deep shadows)<br /> If you have some extra money, get a reflection screen (can be a 'real' collapsible one, which you can easily find for cheap everywhere on the internet, or dead cheap if you just get some polystyrene isolation board at your local DIY shop).<br /> <br />Don't worry, if you buy a sturdy lightstand, you can still use it later with a 'proper' studio flash unit, as of course you can with the umbrella's, and dittyo with the reflection screens (which you can use always, with flash or natural light).<br /> And you can keep using the speedlight, e.g. for shooting birthdays, weddings, or whatever kind of event where you need a little additional lighting and don't want, can't use, or bring along a whole 'softbox on a lightstand' lighting set up (imagine doing that when shooting the 'cutting of the cake' moment at the birthday party of a small child with such an amount of gear. I think 'show of' will be the least of the 'compliments' given).<br /> So my advise, don't listen to the experts, especially on a camera club. Keep it simple, don't spend a lot of money thinking that will automatically improve your skills or the quality of your pictures.<br /> Spend your money wisely, and just practice with the 'simple' gear instead so you'll acquire the skills, rather then the gear with the 'best' specs, to shoot a decent picture.</p>

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[paul_k1664875007]

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[paul_k1664875007]

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[paul_k1664875007]

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[paul_k1664875007]

<p>Sorry, I tried attaching this picture but instead ended up repeatedly posting the original message<br>

<br />Shot on film with and old Nikon AI lens long time ago, so not up the 'modern' definitions of a sharp picture</p><div></div>

[RaymondC]

<p>I have a light stand and a bracket already as well as a 2 in 1 brolly for 3+ years and the SB800 since 2004. The reason I'm wanting a softbox with a grid is to do light ratio so I can control more of the light and learn more different techniques and things like product photography of cosmetic and after shave bottles. I already have a light meter with my medium format photography.</p>

<p>I thought about Einstein's or the D1 or Siros kits since not that much difference $499US vs $1100— 1300US but the cheaper Einstein doesn't come in a discounted 2 light kit with accessories so the price gap narrows. 2x $499US plus accesssories vs maybe $2300US. I am also not in the USA, so I have to import them to New Zealand so P C Buff's stuff can be more tricky and forgo the warranty (?). There are no distributors here I think, perhaps in Australia. I could pick proper brands in Asia when I go there. Here a pair of Elinchrome D-Lite lights in a kit cost like $1,000US equiv. already.</p>

<p><br /> For now the speedlight can be a cheaper way to test things out. But yes so 24 Or 32 inches? One speedlight. I'm not getting dual bracket. I can have a softbox shipped here for $50US. Obviously if I get from B&H like in the past there is the hefty postal cost (probably more than the product itself) but they are cheaper enough not to attract import tax.</p>

[RaymondC]

<p>PS. The light ratio is with one person. I guess for a group of people you want a more even spread of light. Yes if need be I could get a cardboard as a reflector or Aliexpress have them for a few bucks probably delivered.</p>

<p>Mostly used inside. Outside rarely just when a few people want to head to the gardens for some more serious portraits. But never in the city etc of course. </p>

[paul_k1664875007]

<p><em><a href="/photodb/user?user_id=749786">Ray -</a>, Jul 07, 2016; 04:15 p.m.</em></p>

 

<p><em>I have a light stand and a bracket already as well as a 2 in 1 brolly for 3+ years and the SB800 since 2004. The reason I'm wanting a softbox with a grid is to do light ratio so I can control more of the light and learn more different techniques and things like product photography of cosmetic and after shave bottles. I already have a light meter with my medium format photography.</em><br>

<em>I thought about Einstein's or the D1 or Siros kits since not that much difference $499US vs $1100— 1300US but the cheaper Einstein doesn't come in a discounted 2 light kit with accessories so the price gap narrows. 2x $499US plus accesssories vs maybe $2300US. I am also not in the USA, so I have to import them to New Zealand so P C Buff's stuff can be more tricky and forgo the warranty (?). There are no distributors here I think, perhaps in Australia. I could pick proper brands in Asia when I go there. Here a pair of Elinchrome D-Lite lights in a kit cost like $1,000US equiv. already.</em><br>

<br /><em> For now the speedlight can be a cheaper way to test things out. But yes so 24 Or 32 inches? One speedlight. I'm not getting dual bracket. I can have a softbox shipped here for $50US. Obviously if I get from B&H like in the past there is the hefty postal cost (probably more than the product itself) but they are cheaper enough not to attract import tax.</em></p>

 

<p ><em><a name="00e2Q0"></a><a href="/photodb/user?user_id=749786">Ray -</a> , Jul 07, 2016; 04:38 p.m.</em></p>

 

<p><em>PS. The light ratio is with one person. I guess for a group of people you want a more even spread of light. Yes if need be I could get a cardboard as a reflector or Aliexpress have them for a few bucks probably delivered.</em><br>

<em>Mostly used inside. Outside rarely just when a few people want to head to the gardens for some more serious portraits. But never in the city etc of course.</em><br>

<em> </em><br>

Since you already are seriously considering a future upgrade to studio flash units, and want to use the softbox for products shots,<br /> I would go for as big a softbox you can get for the money you have in mind<br>

I don't do any product shoots nowadays, but as they were a big part of my photography studies at the Royal Academy of Arts in The Hague, I paid my dues and gained enough experience with it.</p>

<p>A large softbox is in my experience a much better choice for products, since you'll be able to place it closer to the subject, get the soft light and when used with a studio flash still maintain a decent (smaller, closed down = more DoF) aperture.<br>

And also have a large highlight reflection which for product - especially shiny stuff lime glass and metal - looks much better. And if that's too large, you can still make the light smaller by simply blocking parts of it.</p>

<p>Can't comment on the choice of studio unit's, no experience with the Einsteins, Buff's or Elinchromes (I do have a full set of several Bowens and Hensel units, with all the trimmings like softboxes, reflectors, barndoors snoots, etc. but hardly ever use them)</p>

<p>Downside of a large softbox is of course that with just a speedlight that means most likely having to use it at full power all the time (= slow recycling times) and having to, due to compared with a studio flash, the lower GN, relative shoot with wider open apertures.<br>

But since it's initially just for learning/'playing around' (no disrespect meant) with a softbox and low profile product shooting/lighting, I would not mind the above. The SB800 has the option of the SD 8a battery pack (original Nikon version is IMO way too expensive, a cheapo Chinese knock off goes for as little as approx US $30) which will allow faster recycle times and more capacity (flashes per set of batteries). Do keep in mind the SB800 has no thermal safety (I have 6 of hem myself, love them) so shooting at full load to fast may risk melting it (reason why the SB700/SB900/910 have a built in safety)<br>

And you can still shoot with more closed down/smaller apertures simply by raising the camera's ISO. Yes, theoretically IQ could suffer, although in my experience the modern Nikon DSLR's - roughly speaking D3/D300 and later - can handle anything up to 1600-2500 ISO very well. And as remarked, also by yourself, you'll just be using it as part of a learning process, so it's more important learn more about lighting/ getting it right, so IQ really isn't that relevant yet.</p>

<p>Yo may need a special adapter to fit the speedlight in the softbox, especially if that's intended for use with a studio unit. But that doesn't have to get expensive, eg Bowens sells them for the Lumair softboxes, and yes, there are cheapo knock offs for those too (and it's just a very basic metal construction, so no possible issues with electronics)<br>

On a side note, how are you going to trigger the SB800? In my experience the large size of the softbox will very likely hinder using the optical trigger. Since you seem to want to work with a light/flashmeter, which indicates working with the SB800 in Manual mode, getting a set of cheapo radiotriggers may be the solution.</p>

<p>For the outside work I would still go for an umbrella, easier, lighter, and softer light.</p>

<p>My two cents</p>

 

 

[RaymondC]

<p>My main issue is the limitation for the speedlight with a larger softbox ...</p>

<p>Yes, you can get a knockoff softbox for $40-60US delivered overseas (24 or 36 inches that's 60 or 80cm); comes with the speedring. The speedring is quite limited to speedlights or Godox so you probably cannot retrofit them to future other equipment. Maybe it is best just to use this $40 and play around with it and replace it when I do get the larger lights. </p>

<p>Yes, commander mode off my D600's pop up flash. The sensor on the SB800 is on the side so if I swivel it correctly I hope it works if not at worst I guess I can get a flash cord or one of the $30US Yongnuo and swivel the flash head do it is pointing to the softbox. </p>

<p>Yes, manual way. With a flash meter seems more easier than to chimp. Yes, I still prefer to keep the ISO within 800 if I can. Not very pleasing to post someone's photograph with ISO 3200. For the purpose of this interim approach I'll put up if I can only take photographs single frame and wait for it to recycle. For now the product photography is a bonus, it's a weekend hobby kind of thing, I just want to learn some techniques about light ratio and different lighting techniques like Rembrandt and clamshell etc. Now it's probably to be used indoors, for outdoors I doubt I would even use the brolly - people that I know just want a quick photograph and then they go back to socializing with others. Maybe just the bare flash, a white card with rubber band or with one person closer up maybe the little 23x23cm softbox straight on the hotshoe. </p>

[fotografz]

<p>Ray, It seems you are ready to take the next step. You seem to understand the advantages and limitations of speed-lights. You also seem realistic about what steps to take next. </p>

<p>The key to lighting techniques is control. Modifiers are the way one gains control of any lighting scenario, and allows creative exploration of lighting techniques.</p>

<p>While most any modifier can be adapted to take a speed-light these days, (or a gang of speed-lights), most mods were originally designed for round tube with glass dome, or bare-bulb studio type heads ... where the dome/bare-bulb projects into the modifier to create very even dispersion of light inside the mod.</p>

<p>Then there is the obvious strobe advantage of a 300 watt modeling light so you can actually see what the heck you are doing as you are learning.</p>

<p>The other consideration has been mentioned, but warrants repeating, power levels and recycle time. A 600W/s strobe set to 1/3 power would roughly equal the same output as 3 ganged speed-lights set to full power ... the strobe would recycle instantly, the speed-lights would not. If you fool around for any length of time the speed-lights can shut down from thermal over-load (been there done that).</p>

<p>So, I would recommend taking a proper step forward by moving to strobes ... perhaps a smaller step at first while using your speed-light as an accent light or hair light. </p>

<p>There has been a revolution in both lighting and especially modifiers as of late. Companies like Fotodiox, Selens, and others to be found on Amazon offer previously unheard of values ( For example: Fotodiox 28" White Beauty Dish, choice of Speed-Ring mount including all common strobe mounts, White Sock Diffuser, and ... a 50 degree Honeycomb Grid! ... <strong>all for $179</strong>.) This is not some plastic/fantastic thing. I have two.</p>

<p>Lighting has also made huge strides recently. Ushered in by Profoto with TTL and HSS ... a number of lighting choices are coming on line with fantastic offerings. Check out Priolite Ultra ... an 8" long portable 500W/s strobe with Lith-Ion power, built-in radio, with transmitter communication available for ALL major camera brands, and up to 1/8000 hyper-sync at full power!!!!! Made in Germany, priced less than Profoto B1s. If I were starting out, I go slow and get one of these to start. </p>

<p><a href="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/priolite/priolite-ultra-1-8000th-flash-sync-compact-li-ion">https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/priolite/priolite-ultra-1-8000th-flash-sync-compact-li-ion</a></p>

<p>I just saw a Bolt 360W/s Bare-Bulb head and lithium Ion pack reduced from $785. to $400.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081644-REG/bolt_vb_22_bare_bulb_flash_with.html">http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081644-REG/bolt_vb_22_bare_bulb_flash_with.html</a></p>

<p>Ray, I worked with restricted lighting for many years before getting strobes and not being limited by speed-light mods. It was a revelation because the levels of power and control of subtleties is what mastery of lighting is all about.</p>

<p>My attached pic is one of 20 different images created for a Pilates company ad campaign. It would have required over 17 radio controlled speed-lights @ full power to duplicate the lighting scenario here. Product work often also requires larger mods and things like long strip lights ... which in turn require lot of light so you can stop down for DOF. If working with a big modifier and you want to block portions of it with flags, then you also need more power. And so on.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>- Marc</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[fotografz]

<p>Beauty dish work ... in this case a 33" one.</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[fotografz]

<p>Fitness Portraiture. Larger mods, no diffusion panels and placed a bit further away to create more specular lighting.</p><div></div>

[fotografz]

<p>Product Photography. Even smaller products generally require broad lighting and lots of power to achieve DOF. </p>

<p>Below is one of hundreds of GM wheels I've done forever. It requires broad lighting and then subtractive flags and reflectors to capture chrome items like a wheel. Bottles are similar ... you have to have big mods to get a full reflection in a bottle since it reflects everything around it. </p>

<p>When I first started I tried to use speed-lights ... LOL! Hey, you live and learn. Even an ultra cheap studio light worked better. These wheels were done with very powerful pack/head units and a very large overhead mod ... it would take a dump-truck full of speed-lights and month of Sundays to light and the result still would be questionable. </p><div></div>

[fotografz]

<p>Another over-looked advantage of working with strobes is the ability to use a lower ISO, even when stoping down for additional DOF, while shooting in darker available light situations.</p>

<p>While most modern digital cameras now perform well at high ISOs, ALL of them are optimized at around ISO 100. All the marketing claims like Dynamic Range, noise appearance, and color fidelity are based on the base ISO ... not ISO 3200 or 6400+. Plus, many indoor locations feature mixed lighting so the colors at high ISO can get pretty weird ... especially skin tones. </p>

<p>For my event work I situate a powerful studio strobe (or strobes) to create directional over-all ambient, and use a TTL speed-light in the hot-shoe for fill. This allows almost unlimited mobility.</p>

<p>The pic below was shot at a wedding reception with a 600W/s strobe @ 400W/s camera right, and the speed-light on TTL to fill the resulting directional shadows. The camera was @ ISO 400 and I was able to stop down for DOF. This combo works indoors and out. It was so dark at this reception (aren't they all?), I would have had to shoot at ISO 6400 or worse even with a speed-light if I wanted anything other than the people in the foreground lit properly. </p>

<p> </p><div></div>