Do "1" shutters differ between them in size? which are compatible between each other?

[theodoros_d]

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<br />Hi all, I came through a discussion on web, where it was claimed that Seiko 1 shutters <em>can't be interchanged with</em> Copal 1 shutters... What is the reason for that? Is it the spacing between front and rear cells of the lens that differs? <br /><br />If it is the spacing, which is the shutter with the minimum distance between he two lens cells? Obviously if one uses the shutter with the minimum distance, he can then shim the difference... Isn't it the case? <br /><br />-Which shutters are 100% compatible with each other? <br />-Which shutters are compatible with the Rollei 1 electronic shutter mechanism? <br />-Which shutters are compatible with Seiko 1? <br />-Which shutters can be shimmed as to become compatible with Seiko 1? <br />-Can the electronic Rollei 1 shutter replace (either with shimming or not) replace a Seiko 1 shutter?<br /><br />Thanks in advance...

 

[thirteenthumbs]

<p>Shutter sizes were never standardized. Each manufacturer had their own measurements for each shutter size. The only thing common was the shutter numbering which is 00, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Copal became the standard. Synchro Compur size 1 and Copal size 1 will interchange as they are the same dimensions. Finding the measurement specs for most shutters will be difficult.</p>

[theodoros_d]

<p>Thanks Charles, would you (or another) happen to know which shutter is compatible with SEIKO 1?</p>

[thirteenthumbs]

<p>Copal shutter dimensions can be found here:<br>

http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals<br>

Use a caliper to measure the Seiko if you have one.</p>

[theodoros_d]

<p>Thanks once more Charles, I suppose that electronic Rollei shutter "1" will also be compatible with Copal-1.... Here is the reason after my Question, I recently added a lens on my Fuji GX-680 system which had a busted shutter... I did replace the shutter out of another GX-680 lens and now it works just fine... The other lens (a Fujinon 150/4.5) I had in double....<br>

<br />After the shutter replacement, i ended up with the front and rear cell of a Fuji 150/4.5 lens and a busted (only aperture works) Seiko 1 electronic shutter (see picture below)... I reassembled the front and rear cell of the 150mm lens on the busted shutter as to check if it is still well calibrated, by mounting it on my view camera and used a Sony a7 mirrorless for image area and shutter. The lens works just fine...<br>

So I thought of replacing the shutter with a new one and use it on my view camera from now on with my MFDBs... I can do that if I replace the shutter with a used Seiko-1 shutter, but my MFDBs are both of multishot capability (Hasselblad CF-39MS and Sinarback 54H) and so I thought of using a Rollei shutter "1" (I have Rollei control S, but only Rollei "0" shutters) as to be able to use the lens in multishot mode too...<br>

So I called an (experienced) friend who is using Rollei -"1" shutters on his system as to borrow one and test the lens on it for multishot operation... He is the one that told me that <em>"most probably the lens won't mount on the Rollei-1 shutter"</em> due to mechanical incompatibility of the shutters...<br>

So, I made this thread as to see if I can find a solution other than buying a Seiko-1 (mechanical) shutter... If one knows an electronic shutter that is physically compatible with Seiko-1, it will be great information for me (I could find nothing on the matter on web) because I can then use more Fuji GX-680 lenses on my view camera with my MFDBs, as I have eight of them.<img src="/bboard/_DSC5474.jpg" alt="" width="120" height="120" /></p><div></div>

[theodoros_d]

<p>I suppose the subject could be of interest to many other users, as other than the Fuji GX-680 lenses, Mamiya RZ & RB lenses also use Seiko-1 shutters (and Bronica GS-1 too)... So I suppose one can (easily) disassemble any of the lenses out of these cameras (and may be more that use Seiko-1 shutters?) and then mount them on a view/tech camera after he replaces the shutter with a compatible one...<br>

Some of these lenses are of high performance even with the high requirements that MFDBs have (certainly the Fuji GX-680 lenses are very good indeed as I've find out on my own GX-680 camera with MFDB on it) and thus they could prove to be very good solutions as to use on tech/view cameras...<br>

By the way... Do Mamiya 7 lenses also use Seiko-1 shutters?</p>

[dan_fromm2]

<p>Charles, post-WW II there was indeed a shutter standard. Compur and Prontor set it, Copal adopted it. Also, some makers made #000 shutters.</p>

<p>OP, look here for a larger list of shutter specifications: http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/pratique/Les_obturateurs_centraux.html</p>

<p>OP, a number of people have posted recently on LFPF and Apug about rescuing lenses in the infernal Fuji GX shutter. Its a fool's errand. The lenses are good but nothing special and equivalent lenses already in shutter cost less than acquiring a GX lens and reshuttering it.</p>

<p>If you want to spend your time and money on the exercise, enjoy yourself but don't pretend you're doing it for economy. </p>

[theodoros_d]

<p>Hi Dan,<br>

I really fail to see how buying another lens can be cheaper than reshuttering one you already have... OTOH, some of these lenses are hard to beat, especially if one compares them with similar image circle size alternatives... </p>

[dan_fromm2]

<p>Teddy, reshuttering a lens requires obtaining a shutter that will accept its cells. If the cells are not direct fits in a standard shutter, then adapters are required. Shutters aren't free, neither are adapters.</p>

<p>In my experience, lenses in barrel whose cells are not direct fits in a standard shutter cost more to put in shutter than an equivalent lens already in shutter. The same goes for lenses in shutters that seem standard but aren't really. Two examples:</p>

<p>The 58/5.6 Grandagon/Technikon is in a Synchro Compur #00 with no "T" speed (this is typical of post-WW II #00s) and no cable release socket. The lens was made for rangefinder cameras that have a device on the lens board that holds the end of a cable release. Using the lens on a view camera or Graphic requires replacing the shutter and scaling the replacement. Been there, done that.</p>

<p>The 58 and 60 mm lenses for Koni Omega/Rapid Omega/Omegaflex cameras are in a funny Copal #0 with no cable release socket, no "T" speed and the shutter release protruding from the rear of the camera. The lenses can be cocked off the camera. can't be fired if simply put on, e.g., a Graphic board. Again, a new/used Copal/Compur/Prontor #0 that will have to be rescaled is needed to make the lens usable. Been there, done that.</p>

<p>These days people are stripping cells from Copal/Compur/Prontor #1 shutters, repurposing the shutters, and selling the cells. Buying the cells and then buying a shutter and having it rescaled to suit nearly always costs more than the equivalent lens in shutter. Haven't done that but I've done the costing exercise, and more than once.</p>

<p>You mentioned that some lenses for 6x7 and 6x8 might be useful on MFDBs. No doubt you're right. That, however, doesn't mean that they'll be generally useful on 2x3 and larger film formats. Remember that not everyone who uses press, technical and view cameras shoots with an MFDB.</p>

<p>That you have eight of the things makes me wonder why you care at all about economy. </p>

[theodoros_d]

<p>Have you noticed that one can buy a Seiko shutter these days for peanuts Dan? Only thing I'm asking in the O/P is if there is any alternative available (with or without an adapter) and if there is an electronic one too... My 8 lenses for the Fuji GX-680 are a consequence after merging two different systems with much different lines of lenses... Obviously I don't need all 8 of them... I can therefore "split" half of the lenses and use them on my Sinar... </p>

[bob_salomon]

And, regardless if they do or do not easily fit, they will offer no where near the performance of a digital lens on a medium

format digital back. All you end up really doing is wasting time and raising your ultimate cost for a digital lens.

[theodoros_d]

<p>I do use digital lenses on my view camera Bob, I can ensure you that "performance" is a personal matter depending on many different aspects. For instance... there are cases where performance is great, but image circle provided is limiting the use of the lens to the extend that it makes it a useless choice... On other cases, mounting distance is so small, that performance with modern backs (with microlenses) is awfull... while at the same time, long mounting distance lenses are far superior to use despite their (supposed) inferior MTF graph...<br>

OTOH, there are cases where certain MF lenses beat some directly competitive dedicated lenses for view cameras, but none ever tried to compare... For instance, the Rollei 90mm F4 Apo Symmar of the Rollei 6008 camera, has a 90mm image circle and will beat the (excellent) Rodenstock 90mm HR on all its image circle for all aspects of image quality... (and its not the only example one can give that will prove better than dedicated to view cameras equivalents).<br>

Never the less, it's always best to test than "believe blind" as the modern marketing would like us to do... Speaking on the GX-680 lenses though, one can easily check their quality by shooting an MFDB on one and then check the whole image circle performance by shifting completely the lens on all directions... Not bad at all, I can ensure you... </p>

[bob_salomon]

But Rodenstock's 90mm for the past 2+ years is the 90mm SW. Not the HR and no Rollei 90 will hold up to this latest 90

at any image scale from 1:1 to infinity. Here, check for yourself:

 

http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/en/lenses-for-digital-photography/90-mm-5-6-hr-digaron-w

[theodoros_d]

<p>How much does it cost? ...thanks for the answer... I'll insist on using the Apo Symmar on Rollei mount with the control S... If it did great before, it will still do!</p>