donald_brewster Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Samir -- I think the film choice was fine. I think some of the exposure issues, and content issues, would have been resolved if you had got in even closer and isolated more subjects. THis would eliminate some of the foreground/sky/contrast issues. You needed to pick something that grabs you out in the crowd and get close IMHO. It seemed like you were standing back and hoping you'd catch something in the frame. Crowds are hard to photograph, but I think it is an experience thing. You'll certainly have lots of chances to practice in DC! A good start. Keep at it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Jeff, Thanks. I am more at home with "static" photography - landscapes, architectural , and architectural detail photography. I am trying to get more into street photography, and people in general. It may also have to do with the approach that I took that day. I went with a PJ mindset, looking for a few images that told the story; not something that the images would stand alone as a set - but something that would work in a story. You have given me some thoughts as to how I might want to approach something like this again. I can't wait till I get the B&W stuff processed. I have been told I am also better in B&W than I am in color. Again thanks Jeff Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Donald, I know I learned a couple of things from that day out. For those that aren't aware, we were in the middle of an Artic Blast. The high temp that day was 22F if my memory serves me well. I headed out with my two M6TTL's that I have had less than a year. The battery on the the one with these shots kept going in and out of power. That led to some denser images than I would have liked (thank heaven for Photoshop). I will now carry spares with me everywhere I go. Another thing that I learned is that slide film is not for a clear sky day in the dead of winter is a situation like this. Particularly since outdoor fill flash is problematic with the M6TTL with a 1/50 sync speed. The last thing that I found is that I love the Tri Elmar for events like this. I kept the CV 25mm on the other body with the BW film. Willbe interesting to see the results from that roll. The CV was a joy to shoot with since I didn't have to worry about focusing. Just set one of the click stop distances and let the DOF take care of the rest. Thanks for the comments to Samir, I learned abit from them also. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir Posted January 29, 2003 Author Share Posted January 29, 2003 During the demonstration, there are different things you want to capture. 1. The size of the demonstration: this was very big. This picture does not give justice to the hundreds of thousands of people (500 000 according to the organizers)<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir Posted January 29, 2003 Author Share Posted January 29, 2003 2. Then you find some nice looking people...Like these Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir Posted January 29, 2003 Author Share Posted January 29, 2003 ... or these bystanders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir Posted January 29, 2003 Author Share Posted January 29, 2003 .... here they are<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir Posted January 29, 2003 Author Share Posted January 29, 2003 3. There is no demonstration without police officers, hundreds of them in a freezing cold, on foot, on cars, on bikes, and on motorcycles:<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir Posted January 29, 2003 Author Share Posted January 29, 2003 and more of them here<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samir Posted January 29, 2003 Author Share Posted January 29, 2003 ... and finally a happy chief of police. He was being interviewed by 2 or 3 journalists. He said there were very few arrests (2 or 3), and it was a big, very big demonstration... (this picture was shot with a digital Sony DSC-P85).<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_Es Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 With hundreds of thousands of demonstrators protesting Bush's intended war against Iraq you as a photographer can easily have the demonstration you want to have. Samir has done a pretty good job of capturing the ordinary and the weird, like the half-naked guy with peace symbols printed all over his body. But to capture the essence of the march in a photographic series like this may well be impossible. To my mind, the most extraordinary aspect of this and other demonstrations held against Bush's intended war is the plainness, the ordinariness, of most of the demonstrators. The usual suspects, the bearded beatnik-hippie-lefties can be found if you look--and not hard. But the general blend of protesters is of a bland middle American hue. This was the general hue of people who became turned off to the Vietnam War around 1970--and the majority of these stayed away from demonstrations. It is extraordinary to me that so many ordinary people have become so disgusted with Bush's warmongering that they have taken to the streets even before massive military action has started. What photography can capture of the general sense of the current anti-war mood is questionable. The rhetoric of war hysteria pushed by the Bush people is particularly empty as such rhetoric tends to be. It is in this atmosphere that a large segment of ordinarily ideologically sleepwalking Americans are beginning to see through the nonsense. How can the photographer deal with this? Images alone may not be enough. As someone who has been a peace activist since the age of 15 I have developed an ethic in regard to political demonstrations whose politics I favor. I take no pictures of the demonstrators. This is in case repression comes down and the police want to identify enemies of the state. They will get nothing from me. A word about �journalistic objectivity.� I don�t believe in it. I mean I don�t believe in it in the sense that I don�t believe in the Tooth Fairy. There is no such thing as �journalistic objectivity.� Good journalists (like Robert Fisk) try to be honest in observing and uncompromising in reporting, analyzing and arguing. But that isn�t �objectivity,� if we mean by this a kind of Edenesque ideological purity. Everyone has an angle, unless one is brain dead. Anyway, I thought Samir�s shots were good. I do not think that they will, alone, persuade you one way or the other--unless the sheer force of numbers make you wonder if something is indeed very sick in the American body politic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Alex, The image of the nearly naked guy was mine (no slight taken). For myself i had intended to take and cover both sides of the rally. In fact I had started to walk down to the Vietnam Memorial for the counter rally (ironic when you think about it); but I was just too darn cold. Some of the thoughts raised in this thread do ask the question; are photographs always for today? Or are they for tomorrow. i have always enjoyed viewing images from the 20's, 30's, and 40's. They show life and history in away that sometimes a book misses. I guess thats how I view my photography, more for the future than the present. If by chance it hits a spot today, so much the better. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrestrikon Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Part of the problem is that lighting conditions that day were difficult, to say the least. A very bright sun somehow glittered in the cold air. I took some photos at the demonstration too, but made the mistake of using a medium yellow filter on my 24 -- nothing really turned out. The only negs that were printable came from using my SWC handheld, and only portions of those. Still, based on my test prints those portions would be usable for fine prints... Another part of the problem is that a lot of people were camera-shy, what with the Department of Homeland Security now out and about. It was not the feeling of anti-war demonstrations in the 60s (I was in DC for those then, too) and most demonstrators had not completely entered the public space -- many were first timers. But I think this was just a practice run, so to speak, since war is pretty likely and since the odds then are good that it won't be an easy affair. Indeed, if we are fortunate enough to get a draft (they should draft only the children of people who work for the Federal government), the demonstrations will get pretty interesting. Thirdly, the organizers were not connected to the marchers. The marchers were ordinary folk who are worried about a war. The organizers, on the other hand, were for the most part communists and what-not. To be honest, I'd rather have a glass of wine with one of them than with a hard-right Republican, but that's another matter. Anyhow, the speeches about "Free Mumia!" and other causes got to be too much and people turned off. I'm saying it was a very conflicted march -- astonishing, really astonishing, though, to have such masses of people turn out in the most bitter cold weather Washington has seen in half a dozen years. Just my two cents. G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 George, Well put! That was the thing that caught me was how main stream the crowd was. Though I disagree about drafting the children of Fed employees. They should draft the Children of the senetors, congress people, the lobbyists, and the rest of the power brokers in the country. Happy snaps... Chip PS- The lighting that day made me wish for my N70 and Sb-28 flash for fill-in. Any one have thoughts how best to handle high contrast situations like this with an M? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_Es Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Chip! Oh dear! I am sorry I got mixed up. Well, let me say that I think your naked peace man was great. Except for his shaved head--very now--he is right out of the 60s and 70s. Thank you for the bare facts. I hope that the naked peace man and all the tens of thousands of normally clothed people who see the naked truth about Bush's intended war on Iraq will prevent that unnecessary bloodletting. And I've changed my mind. Photographers can make a difference. Some of the images I saw here haunt me. I hope they haunt others. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_m_johnson Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 The picts of Saddam gassing the Kurds had an impact on me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrestrikon Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 If you dig behind the headlines you'll find that it's not at all clear who gassed the Kurds. The top CIA guy at the time, now retired, has written extensively about this. I can't find a quick link for you, but if you're interested enough to spend an hour or so doing searches you'll see what I'm talking about. The bottom line: the Kurdish villages that were gassed were caught in fighting between Iranian and Iraqi forces (the region was contested for its water supply). Both sides used gas but the Kurds probably caught it from the Iranians, as they died from cyanide based gas which the Iraqis, we think, didn't have at that time. Pretty neat slogan, though, don't'cha think? "He gassed his own people. We've got to get rid of him." Better than whatever the truth might sound like. Pictures moved you, huh? They'll do that... G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrestrikon Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Argh, I'm too tired to think this morning. But here's a link to the NYT (free registration, blah, blah). http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Pics of Palistinian home being bulldozed, bombed out busses in Isreal, students facing down tanks in China, salilite images of fuel rods being moved in Korea, and tribal wars in Africa move me too. So many opportunities for the US to have shown it's support of those being oppressed. It only seems like when money is invovled, or it appears to be "winnable" does the US military get in to action. The issue is that the photojournalist brings a mesaage. How people react to it is up to them. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_m_johnson Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 USA = BAD everyone else = Good! Now I get it! Did any of you protest the Iraq/Iran war? Saddam has killed more Muslims then just about anyone in history. You could sell a few Leicas and give the money to the starving folks in iraq?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrestrikon Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 The image is not necessarily what you think it is; while the photojournalist knows he may not tell you what it is -- and it's easy to be fooled. A little history from the former Yugoslavia: the image that really got people going in 1991, that, in my view, changed the whole track of US policy, was one shot of a starved guy, his ribs sticking out, behind barbed wire. Concentration camps! Newspapers and TV had a field day. The Serbs never recovered their image in the eyes of outsiders. But if you see the rushes from the orginal film crew, as I have, it's painfully obvious that ten meters on either side of that dilapidated wire fence there was no fence. People were wandering all around the area, freely, and the TV crew followed them. In fact, the area in question was a secondary school which was acting as a kind of refugee collection point. Sure, there were a couple other -- other! -- places which might have doubled as concentration camps, but TV crews couldn't get there. So these pics, fraudulently, portrayed a story that photojournalists conjured up, perhaps for the proper motives, perhaps not. Later on a magazine in the UK pointed all this out, was sued by the TV chain in question, lost the suit (!), and was driven out of business. The moral of the story is never, under any circumstances, never ever trust a corporate media organization to tell you the truth about anything. And pictures can lie... Cheers, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrestrikon Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 "Saddam has killed more Muslims then just about anyone in history." Johnson, are you aware that the US was helping Iraq in its war against Iran? Not only did we give them a lot of intelligence, and equipment, but US special forces were running around in the Gulf blowing up Iranian facilities for our Iraqi friends. Did you know that the distinguished Rummy was in Iraq, shaking Saddam's hand, while all this was going on? Did you know that most recently another of our distinguished leaders, the Veep, was making a fortune selling stuff to Iraq, right before he left private business, cashing in his retirement bonuses, to become a public servant. Maybe you're right, "Saddam has killed more... etc." It's a preposterous assertion on the face of it which could only be issued by someone who is completely and utterly ignorant of the world, but let's say it's true. Then we were certainly his principal accomplices. Regards, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chip l. Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Robert, The point I was making was that we in the US makes selective arguements on who is "bad". I guess that is good in one way, since we would have no one left on the homefront, we would be all over the world. I would be interested in seeing the numbers killed by the African warlords verses Sadam. I count my self lucky that I went down to photograph this "minority of radicals" as some within the Bush adminstration labled the event. IMHO it was a very well balanced representation of the population. I hope that me and my trusty Leica will make it some more rallys as they come up. Chip PS - Though no one has yet offered suggestions for an M user shooting in harsh lighting conditions like a clear winter day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug_landrum Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 <p>This thread could use a good "Fisking". I say to the anti-war crowd, go to these links, read and think for once.</p><p></p><a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/55766p-52218c.html">Spies</a><p></p><a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110002994">Letter From Europe</a><p></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_Es Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Chip, I did not quite understand what you were requesting regarding "suggestions for an M user shooting in harsh lighting conditions like a clear winter day." For this reason I went to all the shots you posted. Given the quality of those shots I think you could be advising us. I was especially moved by the father who lost his daughter on September 11 who did not want Bush's war against Iraq to be fought in her name. So what film did you use? What about exposure? All that seems secondary to the powerful images you shared with us--but necessary. If any photographs can convince the average sleepwalking American that the war Bush is pushing for against Iraq is stupid and immoral they are photographs like the ones we have seen here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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