Lighting gear for MF film wedding photography?

[patrick_regan1]

<p>Two-part noob question; I just started shooting film in the past few months, and my head is still stuck in digital mode most of the time...</p>

<p>Part the first: for the photogs shooting film at weddings, are you using any sort of off camera flash for their shots? I know that's a really broad question as there are lots of different kinds of shots! Perhaps another way to ask the question: is the exposure latitude and dynamic range of film so much greater that film-shooting wedding photogs can get away with doing all their work in natural light - only breaking out the expensive OCF stuff for the reception when they switch to digital?</p>

<p>Part deux: if they are using flash, what kind of gear would they use? I'm thinking specifically of those shooting MF with (e.g.) Contax and Pentax 6x4.5 or Hassy 6x6. There's a slew of lighting gear for digital, obviously, but what are MF film shooters using when they're creating those dreamy outdoor portraits of the bride and groom? Some of those focal-plane MF kits only have an x-sync of 1/60s.</p>

[Gary Naka]

<p>If there isn't enough light to shoot available light, then you have to shoot flash, or you get nothing. Clear this with the church as some churches don't allow flash, yet the guests will use their cameras with flash.<br /> And if it is dark, and flash is not allowed (some churches), then you have to use FAST film + FAST glass (ie 50mm/f1.4). Then do a trial run, to see what can and cannot be done.<br /> And you cannot just change ISO speed like you can with a digital. You have to change the film to change the ISO speed, and you can only do that with a camera with an interchangeable back, like a Hasselblad, Bronica, or RB67. With 35mm, no interchangeable back, so you need a 2nd body for the FAST film.</p>

<p>Quantum, Lumedyne, . . . <br /> Much of the same lighting stuff that can be used for digital can be used for film.<br /> What is wrong with an X-sync of 1/60 sec?<br>

If it is a problem, leaf shutters will sync up to their max speed of 1/500 sec.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>I used Mamiya 645 for many years. There is no need to restrict the Flash Sync Speed to 1/60s if you invest in a Leaf Shutter Lens. Mamiya produced a 55/2.8, 80/2.8 and 150/3.5 and an earlier model 70/2.8 – probably these lenses were most used by the Wedding Photography Industry – certainly all the Professionals I knew, used at least one Leaf Shutter Lens in their kit.</p>

<p>Other manufacturers also made these Leaf Shutter Lenses specifically for the use of Flash as Fill in Sunlight - this comment also generally addresses the question above, about <em>what is wrong with a Max Flash Sync of 1/60th?' </em> - 1/60th can be somewhat restrictive for using Flash as Fill in Sunlight and at the same time seeking a medium to shallow DoF, for the Wedding Portraiture<em>.</em></p>

<p>For lighting I used Metz “Hammer-heads” supplemented with a Vivitar. I carried a couple of brollies (Silver and Gold) and a shoot-through spreader and a big bounce card.</p>

<p>One advantage of using the Metz Hammer-heads is the quick release bracket allows for the Flash to be quickly released and held way off the lens’s axis to allow for creative lighting solutions for the Wedding Portraiture.</p>

<p>I think that still using Thyrisitor Flash Heads with Film Camera Bodies that do not support TTL Flash Metering would be OK – it depends what camera bodies that you are buying into: but manual bodies and lenses work fine and are cheaper I would expect.</p>

<p>If you use manual Flash you’ll probably need to learn to judge distance and to use Guide Numbers and do the Flash Ratios in your head, but that’s not hard to learn and you will get to have a few commonly used Light Modifiers and you’ll need to know their bounce / shoot through factors.</p>

<p>Yes there is typically more exposure latitude in (some) film, than digital, but the point is to get a good final product you should strive to shoot for good exposure all the time and only underexpose if absolutely necessary and then you should have a lab which knows how to push the developing - and probably you should shoot a test shot for the lab to do a Clip Test, first.</p>

<p>The extra "speed" that you might need for low level light work will generally be in the FILM, not in the lenses: I don't know of any F/1.4 lenses made for MF cameras - but as as suggested you could plonk a 50/1.4 on a MF body if you wanted to. So you will need a range of Film Stock. Consider very fast B&W film as a backstop for very dark situations. Also TIMING of the shot becomes critical if you have to shoot in Available Light, especially in the Church if Flash is prohibited or restricted - this is so to avoid or limit any SUBJECT MOVEMENT. A Monopod will be a good friend - you might find shooting at 1/15th or 1/8th in dark environs with a "fast" F/2.8 lens and you could be pushing your colour film to ISO1600.</p>

<p>Basic MF Wedding Kit –<br /> Two Camera Bodies; 55mm; 80mm; 80mm leaf; 150mm; 210mm; two Metz Hammer-heads; Vivitar 283 (with Remote Sensor Lead) ; set of Flash Colour Correction Gels; set of Flash Spreaders; Optical Flash Trigger ; extra long Sync Lead; Waist Level Finder.</p>

<p><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/18288140-lg.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>WW</p>

[Gary Naka]

<p>What I meant with the 50/1.4 is, in that low light situation, shoot a 35mm film camera, just to use FAST glass.<br>

If pushed into a corner, use what you need to use, don't be tied to MF "just because."</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Oh! OK, thanks Gary for the clarification: I misunderstood what you meant.</p>

<p>Which brings me to another comment by Patrick here: <strong><em>only breaking out the expensive OCF stuff for the reception when they switch to digital? </em></strong><br>

<strong><em> </em></strong><br>

I don't quite understand if Patrick wants to shoot Weddings in the <strong>Film</strong> medium why he assumes (or wants to) switch to digital gear later?</p>

<p>Just carry a couple of 35mm film bodies one with 400 ISO Colour and the other with very fast B&W, a fast standard zoom (F/2.8) and a fast 35mm lens (or 50mm - just that I'd like a fast 35mm lens), and that should cover "the reception" photos.</p>

<p>WW<br>

<strong><em><br /></em></strong></p>

[DWScott]

<p>William W, that's essentially the same lighting setup I settled on for shooting with Bronica ETR bodies. For backup flashes I carry a Nikon SB 26 and SB 28 that work well in Auto mode. But the Metz hammerheads are the real workhorses, and the results are lovely.<br>

Most importantly, the results are also PREDICTABLE. I rely on the thyristor auto on the Metz flashes, which is easily adjustable from the dial on top. It makes it easy to dial down the flash for day light fill, or just a little sparkle in the eyes.<br>

I admit to shooting mostly digital now, but my setup remains the same. Camera is on full Manual, Metz hammerheads on Auto. I miss the high speed sync of the Bronica shutters, but have absolutely reliable, repeatable exposures.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Patrick should consider a Bronica ETR Medium Format System, especially if one of his major concerns is the limitation of Focal Plane Shutters.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>David - re Digital Photography and Leaf Shutters:<br>

I use Canon DSLRs, and I can (although expensive to do) mount my Mamiya Sekor Lenses on those Canon DSLR bodies to allow use of use the Leaf Shutter: maybe you can do the same with your digital gear and your Bronica Lenses - but recently I chose another route and bought a Fuji X100s - and its lens suits me just fine.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[Gary Naka]

<p>Pat,</p>

<p>I've shot weddings where we used flash in the church; mostly the procession, but also the ceremony. <br>

As I said before, if it's too dark to shoot available light, you use flash, or you get nothing. And we did not have ISO 400+ speed color film like you do today. We shot ASA 80 or 100 film.</p>

<p>William brings up a point that I had not caught.<br>

Why switch to digital for the reception? If you shoot film, I would stick with it. Unless it is for the candid shots where the couple wants a LOT of shots. Though this also depends on the contract with the couple. Some want all film (maybe a mix of MF and 35mm), some want digital, some want a mix.</p>

<p>The Off Camera Flash does not have to be EXPENSIVE. Yes you can use a Nikon D7200 + the Nikon eTTL flash which cost close to a $1,000. But as William and David show, you don't NEED TO. You can get an old Metz or Sunpack hammerhead/potato masher for less than $100. Heck in the old days, I did not even have auto flash. I had to manually adjust the aperture for each shot based on distance. And one got pretty good at "eyeballing" the distance. I used the Honeywell Strobonar 800, and I liked it because it was light. There was no battery and associated circuits in the flash itself, all the power came from the HV battery pack on my belt or shoulder strap. And the flash was recycled by the time I finished advancing the film.</p>

<p>Which brings me to one flash accessory that I consider mandatory, and that is a High Voltage battery pack. There are times when you just can't wait the 6+ seconds for the flash to recycle, when using its internal AA batteries. Otherwise you have to pick the one shot to shoot. Example the bouquet toss; the toss, mid flight, the scramble to catch it. Generally, the scramble to catch it is the shot that is done, but the toss is a nice shot also. So why have to choose between them, shoot both. OK, in the old days we used 2 photogs; #1 would get the toss, #2 would get the scramble to catch it. And there are so many 2nd shots that you would miss, waiting for the flash to recycle. Though for these fast shots, you really want to get a motor drive/winder for the MF camera, as most MF cameras can't manually advance as easily and fast as the old 35mm cameras did. My thumb got pretty good at working the film advance lever on my 35mm cameras.</p>

<p>If you are concerned about daylight fill flash, then get a camera that uses a leaf shutter to eliminate the sync issue, and move on.<br>

I recently bought a used Hasselblad 500cm + 50mm CF + back + WLF for less that what I paid for my old Nikon D70. Granted you will have to have the old gear get a CLA, which will add to the cost.</p>

[patrick_regan1]

<p>Thanks, all, for the great info. I think you've all helped me answer my overarching question of: are the folks who shoot film using OCF to get their images? And the answer seems to be "yes." The kit that William shows above doesn't look fundamentally different than what I'd expect to see in an all-digital photog's kit; great visual answer to my question!</p>

<p>What got me going down this rabbit hole is some research I've been doing regarding simplifying my digital workflow. I've been looking at Lightroom presets like VSCO and Mastin Labs. Mastin has a ton of great blog articles for "hybrid" photographers (those that shoot both digital and film; maybe I'm old-school, but I just call people who make still images "photographers" regardless of the medium...but that's another forum post altogether!). A lot of the hybrid photogs are shooting film for the portraits portions, sending them off to labs like Richard or FIND for processing and toning, and running the digital files from the reception through their film-mimicking presets. In their how-to posts, I never seem to see them using OCF for the portraits. That got me wondering if these folks are counting on natural light alone when they're using film, or if their how-to vids are leaving out lighting setups simply for simplicity (and propaganda - buy our presets, and they'll fix everything!).</p>

<p>I've been shooting digital for some time now, and I'm at the point where I'm ready to invest in some serious lighting gear. The answers you guys have provided above are helping me narrow down my potential shopping list; I want a kit that I can use with both my digital setup and my (more modest) film setup. I'm still on the fence about shooting weddings, but I posted in this forum (as opposed to, say, studio) because I really like on-location portraiture, and the creativity that demands (while retaining a bit of control and structure). I'm not a huge fan of the run-and-gun style that the reception seems to require.</p>

<p>For what it's worth, my MF kit at the moment consists of one Hassy 501c with a couple backs, a 2.8/80, and 4/150. I added a 45-degree prism finder, and my speed and hit rate has increased remarkably over the waist-level finder. I'd like to add a microprism/split-ring viewfinder to increase my speed further still. For OCF with my MF, I'm using Cowboy Studios radio transmitters and Lomopro manual speedlites. It's cheap, simple, and gets the job done. I will definitely do some homework on the Bronica setup. I'm leaning Contax 645nii at the moment. I _think_ I want the AF option.</p>

<p>My digital rig is all Canon with relatively fast glass (2.8 zooms). I'm considering adding an EOS-1v since the lens mounts are the same. A 1v with the 1.2/50 and/or the 1.2/80 I think would serve me well for shooting film at the reception.</p>

<p> </p>

[Gary Naka]

<p>The reception is 'run and gun' only if you make it. Shoot MF, and you HAVE TO slow down. In the old days it was 4x5 then later MF, and shots were very deliberate. </p>

<p>You will NEED a 2nd MF body. Primary + backup/spare.<br>

You will NEED a wide angle lens, sooner or later. Because sooner or later you will be in a space constrained situation, where you back is literally up against the wall, and you can't get any farther back. So start planning and saving for that lens.<br>

As for AF, that depends. It is nice, and I like it, but you really need to know how it works and how to control it, or it could focus on the wrong thing, and your subject will be out of focus. Been there, done that . . . grrrr.</p>

<p>I would get a flash that has the option of a HV pack, that gives you the option later for faster recycle speed. <br>

For flash triggering, I use wired, optical and RF. <br>

- How I trigger my flash(es) depends on the situation. Camera attached flash is wired. Camera detatched (your off-camera flash) is RF or optical.<br>

- Optical is reliable, but is vulnerable to other people's flash, so I use it where I don't have other people's flash to worry about.<br>

- RF, for commercial use, you need an absolutely reliable trigger. Not the iffy eBay stuff that works maybe 90% of the time.</p>

<p>KISS.<br>

For location work, you cannot bring your entire studio, so plan and select carefully.</p>

[fotografz]

 

 

 

<blockquote >

<p > </p>

<p >I've been shooting digital for some time now, and I'm at the point where I'm ready to invest in some serious lighting gear. The answers you guys have provided above are helping me narrow down my potential shopping list; I want a kit that I can use with both my digital setup and my (more modest) film setup. I'm still on the fence about shooting weddings, but I posted in this forum (as opposed to, say, studio) because I really like on-location portraiture, and the creativity that demands (while retaining a bit of control and structure). I'm not a huge fan of the run-and-gun style that the reception seems to require.</p>

<p >For what it's worth, my MF kit at the moment consists of one Hassy 501c with a couple backs, a 2.8/80, and 4/150. I added a 45-degree prism finder, and my speed and hit rate has increased remarkably over the waist-level finder. I'd like to add a microprism/split-ring viewfinder to increase my speed further still. For OCF with my MF, I'm using Cowboy Studios radio transmitters and Lomopro manual speedlites. It's cheap, simple, and gets the job done. I will definitely do some homework on the Bronica setup. I'm leaning Contax 645nii at the moment. I think I want the AF option.</p>

<p >My digital rig is all Canon with relatively fast glass (2.8 zooms). I'm considering adding an EOS-1v since the lens mounts are the same. A 1v with the 1.2/50 and/or the 1.2/80 I think would serve me well for shooting film at the reception.</p>

</blockquote>

<p > </p>

<p >I've used everything you mention above.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >For decades I was an all film wedding shooter, then a hybrid shooter up until only 5 years ago. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Most of the early hybrid shooting was 35mm digital and MF film. Later on I shot both film and digital MF using a Hasselblad 503CW and 203FE with a digital back and film backs.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I'll address the MF film part of your questions including how it relates to lighting. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >IMO, stick with the Hasselblad V and lenses you already have. If anything, just upgrade your body to the 503CW which adds TTL control of one-camera flash for fill ... in such a case, the available light is the key light and the on-camera flash just acts as fill. (one great TTL bare-bulb flash is the Hasselblad version made for the TTL V cameras).</p>

<p > </p>

<p >This provides up to 1/500 sync to control background exposure for outdoor portraiture. <em>Often we do not have total control of where or when outdoor portraits are taken at a wedding ... so controlling backgrounds can be a great asset rather than blown skies and overexposed locations behind back-lit subjects. </em></p>

<p ><em> </em></p>

<p >The Contax 645 is a great camera, but doesn't offer Leaf-shutter lenses and the 645 format is less versatile than the 6X6 of the V.<em> </em>In addition, working with on-camera fill flash on the Contax in portrait orientation is difficult and awkward. With the V you never turn the camera. BTW, the AF of the Contax is not what you may think it is.</p>

<p > </p>

<blockquote>

<p >I've been shooting digital for some time now, and I'm at the point where I'm ready to invest in some serious lighting gear.</p>

</blockquote>

<p > </p>

<p ><strong>RE: Off-Camera Flash;</strong> Off-camera Flash can be used at weddings both outdoors as directional fill, or outdoors as a key light with on-camera flash as fill using higher sync speeds to adjust the background exposure as desired. Indoors the off-camera strobe can act as key light and on-camera as fill, effectively diminishing the effects of mixed color temperature, or undesirable directly overhead ambient lighting. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Eventually, IMO, and experience, what you want is something small, mobile and portable (i.e., battery driven). Flash systems such as the Elinchrom Quadra Lithium is one example that is about as small as it gets, but punches well beyond its size/weight. There are many others to select from, but try to keep the size smaller for ease of transport. Battery pack units are great because you can hang the battery lower on the stand to help stabilize it. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >- Marc</p>

<p > </p>

<p >P.S., Background control isn't limited to outdoors with back lit subjects. Here is a MF shot at a crowded reception where I used a higher sync speed to kill the cluttered ambient background ... Off-camera Elinchrome Quadra @ 320 W/s with a shoot through translucent umbrella high up camera right ... on-camera TTL flash for fill. </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

 

 

<div></div>

[fotografz]

<p>Here is 1/500 high-speed sync used outdoors to tame a bright background. The trick is "balanced lighting" so use of flash isn't readily apparent.<br>

-Marc</p>

<div></div>

[fotografz]

<p>Oh, I forgot ... consider adding a 50mm to your two V lenses. Those three are all you'll ever need. You do not want to go wider than 50mm for group shots because of the distortion on either end of of the group. </p>

<p>50mm is also spectacular for environmental portraits in square format IMHO!</p>

<p>- Marc</p><div></div>

[patrick_regan1]

<p>Hi Marc,</p>

<p>Thanks for the detailed feedback. Shortly after I posted my initial question (minutes after, actually), I finally pulled the trigger on a new Quadra ELB 400. It arrives today, and I feel like a kid on Christmas morning! I do - or would like to do more - outdoor photography (hiking, climbing, mountaineering), and I wanted the lightest-weight, most rugged battery strobe I could get. It was a tough decision for the ELB 400 vs the B2, but the hi-sync (much different than HSS) sold me. I'm looking forward to using it for on-location, outdoor portraits. Your post above has me feeling better about my decision; I tend to avoid buying new gear at all cost, and when I do its after months of research and weighing the pros/cons.</p>

<p>If I wrote Contax 645 previously, I definitely meant Pentax. I'm only going off of about 30 minutes of Google searching, but the mechanical finicky-ness of the Contax has me steering clear. I don't have the patience to treat my gear with white gloves; the Pentax seems more of the workhorse. And: leaf shutters! Still, there was a used 4/50mm CF at the local camera shop for a very reasonable price... Hmmmm.</p>

<p>Beautiful images, too. Thanks for sharing.</p>

[Gary Naka]

<p>Get the 50 CF.<br>

You WILL be in situations where you need the coverage of the wide lens. It is only a matter of time.</p>