david_smith110 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 <p>A new video from The Camera Store TV is that covers a bit of preview for their Best Of 2015 video along with some news about Samsung has some interesting insights on the migration to mirrorless. This link will put you about 5:48 into the video where they begin discussing the A7RII and mirrorless in general. Turns out pro photogs are using mirrorless cameras, quite a bit actually.</p><p><p>Keep in mind these guys are big in the retail camera industry in their area, the boots on the ground so to speak. They deal one on one in the trenches will people buying or trading in gear. To quote the video..."This is the first time that I've seen people in droves dumping Canon and Nikon, like loyal people." in reference to the A7RII. Then mention is made that "But still, this is the first time that, yeah, we are seeing a lot of pros...dumping their gear."</p><p>Mention is also made of those pros trading in upwards of $20,000 in gear to move to mirrorless (directly in reference to the A7RII I believe). I know there has been much discussion on this board (wailing and gnashing of teeth actually) concerning pros and their use of mirrorless. Keep in mind this is just one camera store in one city, albeit a big city. </p><p>I remember linking an article just a while back about several pros (about 8) who use Sony and another article about 10 pros sports shooters who use mirrorless in general. There was a lot of poo pooing in the responses and cries of "Lol, only 8? Hahaha!" </p><p>No, its not only 8. Or 10. Or 100. You wont see every pro who is making the switch advertise the fact. As a matter of fact you will only see a small percentage advertise that they have switched. Most pro photogs will simply make a decision about what works for them, make the change, and get on with their business of taking photos for money. But they are most definitely making the change.</p><p>Watch the video in its entirety if you can. There is some good industry related stuff included as well as some information about Samsung. Not anything new about whats going on with them unfortunately, but some insight as to why they may be closing shop.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_in_PA Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>anecdotal information is not data, though. Do these guys SELL cameras in the video? Doesn't that always make their "anecdotal data" suspect?<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we have choices and I dumped Nikon for mirrorless (albeit Olympus), but he's never seen mass migration before? Pros went back and forth between Nikon and Canon all the time 10 - 20 years ago as they leapfrogged each other.<br /><br />If you're happy with your thousands of dollars invested in the Whizbang 2000, you don't HAVE to assume that the people who bought the GeeWhiz 3000 are somehow worse...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>In the last year and a half that I've been cognizant of MILC cameras, I have not encountered any professional photographers using anything other than Canon or Nikon, and only one amateur with a Sony A7 (the original version). If the gear you're using meets your needs, why change? That said, photographers for newspapers, schools and concert venues do not demand the highest image quality, unlike landscape or architectural photographers (who tend to work in solitude).</p> <p>At least one pro, working an event in Millennium Park, Chicago, asked me in some detail what I was using and why. My reasons include universal image stabilization, precise focusing, lens compatibility and silent operation. Cutting weight by about 40% is a real plus for my back.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_smith110 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>anecdotal information is not data, though. Do these guys SELL cameras in the video? Doesn't that always make their "anecdotal data" suspect?</p> </blockquote> <p>Oh my goodness....Peter, I think you're on to something. I thought back on my time watching the video and upon reflection I didn't <em>actually</em> remember seeing them sell any cameras. 'Well surely that cant be right' I thought to myself. So I went back and watched the video again so I could refute your post this morning.</p> <p>Viewing the video again as the seconds ticked by on the timer I started to go cold. They were talking, sharing ideas about their experiences working in the industry and new trends they had noticed, but it didn't seem like they actually <em>sold any cameras</em>. Scared now, I went back and watched the video yet again, carefully watching their hands this time.</p> <p>Omg....at no point, absolutely <strong><em>no point</em> </strong>in the video did either Chris or Jordan actually sell a camera to anyone and take money in return. <em>How did I miss this? </em>This was incredibly upsetting to me so I quickly unplugged my computer and sat in a corner for a while holding my FL 55/1.2. 'Its gonna be ok' I kept telling myself, stoking the lens. 'Its gonna be ok...'<em><br /></em></p> <p>On a side note, I'm not familiar with the Whizbang 2000. Is that Canons new mirrorless camera? Did you get that info from a rumor site or a trusted source?</p> <blockquote> <p>If you're happy with your thousands of dollars invested in the Whizbang 2000, you don't HAVE to assume that the people who bought the GeeWhiz 3000 are somehow worse...<br /><br> </p> </blockquote> <p>To this point, why are <strong>you</strong> assuming that I said people who don't have a certain type of camera are somehow worse? Where on earth did you get that from my post? My point in this post is to show more evidence of changing market currents and a possible long term change to the overall gestalt of photography, both professional and enthusiast, from people who deal with this market and gestalt on a daily basis.<br /><br> <br> Why do you feel the need to bring this down to a personal level of individuals with cameras? If droves of people get rid of Canon and Nikon that doesn't mean that those who keep Canon and Nikon are somehow worse off. It just means that a lot of people decided that this new type of camera is better for them.<br /><br> <br> The signifigance for me in this type of 'anecdotal data' is not about the people who keep Canon and Nikon, but rather Canon and Nikons response, as companies, to many people buying other cameras. Especially in regards to new products this may force them to develop. I'm looking at the industry here Peter...not who decides to shoot with what. Me no care about that.<br /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_in_PA Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>Oh my goodness, I don't think anybody's hearing me. I will simply bow out now... See ya.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas_k. Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>If so: great, I'm looking forward to buying cheap pro equipment "dumped" en mass by the "pros".</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>It's a watchable video and those are two funny guys, but it's just two people from the photo trade chewing the fat about what might be going on, and they clearly have no inside knowledge. Their observations about photographers trading in Canon and Nikon gear (and getting rock bottom prices) don't really tell us anything either. Camera stores don't give much in trade-in except for nearly-new, mint, current items. <br> The new camera market is not very healthy at the moment, but it need not have anything to do with evolving technologies.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas J. Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>If so: great, I'm looking forward to buying cheap pro equipment "dumped" en mass by the "pros".</p> </blockquote> <p>Ditto! Yea, "pros", please go mirrorless, would ya, dSLR's stink....dump all your Nikon stuff, please!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_smith110 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>Ditto! Yea, "pros", please go mirrorless, would ya, dSLR's stink....dump all your Nikon stuff, please!</p> </blockquote> <p>Lol, nice. :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewg_ny Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>I was imagining that there are a good number of enthusiasts with pro-grade DSLR kits that might be more likely to make such a switch.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Schaefer Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>My point in this post is to show more evidence of changing market currents</p> </blockquote> <p>And your evidence is two guys in a video claiming "droves of people dumping Canon and Nikon". How many people constitute a "drove"? What does the store with all that useless Canon and Nikon gear now? Why are they even accepting it as a trade-in? <br> They also mention that this is the "first time they see lots of pros dumping their gear" - so all the info so far on pros switching to Sony must have been bogus? Is that what you base your "quite a bit actually" is based on?</p> <p>I strongly doubt that lots of pros are dumping their gear - it's a very tough business decision to make and justify. Enthusiasts much more readily make that kind of decisions - after all, they don't have to calculate the cost/benefit that a pro has to take into account.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumpton Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>This is really a sterile argument. Change is inevitable, but tendencies are often misinterpreted. Be happy, photograph! Let the businesses worry about their market. Purchase and use what you prefer. That is the bottom line. Who cares about what the pros shoot? I care more about who has talent to make photographs that move me, and in my own ability to do so. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_smith110 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>And your evidence is two guys in a video claiming "droves of people dumping Canon and Nikon</p> </blockquote> <p>When those two guys are Chris and Jordan from a very successful and popular Canadian photography store then yes, I'll consider it <em>a piece</em> of evidence Dieter. Not the smoking gun, not the definitive piece of evidence, but a piece of evidence in a growing body of evidence in a continually unfolding story.</p> <p>I hear it on podcasts (Petapixel, TWIP and their affiliates, etc), I see it in videos, I read it in articles...people are switching from DSLR's and moving to Mirrorless, some of them professional photographers. Why is that so hard to believe Dieter? How about you prove to me that people aren't switching. Good luck with that.</p> <p>I am simply flabbergasted by the amount of resistance this topic generates. I have gone to great lengths to generate productive and fun discussion about one aspect of the gear industry. Never have I encountered such a bull headed resistance to even discussing the possibilities about what these changes may mean in the future. Simply astounding.</p> <p>Every time I post up a link or an article about this topic several things, or a combination of them seems to happen.</p> <p>• the integrity of the website or organization is called into question (CSTV, various websites, Reuters!)<br> • the 'professionalism' of the pro photographer is called into question<br> • claims are made that ''well I'm a pro photographer and nobody I know shoots with mirrorless, so there...its not happening and youre wrong'. Oh, I wasn't aware I was discussing such things with somebody who knows <em>every other photographer in the entire world</em><br> • I'm asked to prove that the information in the website is correct, as if the burden of proof is on me. Witnessed by the ridiculous first response to this thread. <em>"Did you see them selling any cameras?"</em> Are you joking? I showed that response to some of my friends at work and we all had a great laugh about that one.</p> <p>So Dieter, you're saying Chris and Jordan are ignorant buffoons who are pontificating to no effect on matters outside their bailiwick? Or are you simply calling them outright liars?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_arnold Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>Turns out pro photogs are using mirrorless cameras, quite a bit actually.</p> </blockquote> <p>sorry, David, but i watched your video and <em>there's. absolutely. no. evidence. to. support. this. claim.</em><br /> <br /> The other thing, as Peter pointed out, is that this is purely anecdotal hearsay. If it is evidence of a trend, there's no way to quantify it. The Camera Store guys don't actually offer any data or scientific evidence. So it's difficult to really draw any conclusions from this, other than in a slumping industry, mirrorless full frame is the one thing that is generating some buzz at this moment. Obviously, these guys are feeding into that.<br /> <br /> But if we look at the CIPA numbers, we'll see:</p> <ul> <li>DSLR sales are actually up in the USA this year</li> <li>Mirrorless sales still account for a small percentage of the overall market</li> <li>Sales overall are down in terms of numbers, but profit margins on more expensive products are up</li> </ul> <p><br /> I'm not disputing that some leakage from DSLR to mirrorless has occurred, but i don't think it's anywhere near an epidemic, and i also don't think it's really a thing at the pro level. We've already gone over the reasons for this, but it basically boils down to this: the A7 series still doesnt have a full line of pro-spec lenses, and doesnt cut the mustard for sports/action. So what we're left with is mainly hobbyists, enthusiasts, and landscapists chasing high-end resolution, as well as legacy lens users using adaptors. There might be a few wedding photographers here and there using mirrorless systems, but again, the overwhelming majority are still DSLR users.<br /> <br /> That being said, the A7 series' emergence is a good thing for the camera industry. The perception of competition is a motivating factor, as well as the development of innovative technology. However, the average camera buyer isn't plunking down $3000 for a new body plus another $2500 or $5000 for lenses; the average camera buyer is looking at an entry-level DSLR with one or two lenses for around $1000 or less. There is a shift in the pro market toward incorporating more video, and this is an area where some mirrorless systems excel and others not so much, but a true pro videographer will often use several platforms, so we can't say there is an overhwelming trend toward mirrorless or full-frame mirrorless in this market, either. Blink twice and new DSLRs will all have 4k video too. So what we're actually seeing is evolution in the consumer marketplace, to the point where potential buyers now have a plethora of choices across every price point from entry-level to advanced amateur. Pros often have specific needs, so they're really in a separate category altogether.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_arnold Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>they are most definitely making the change.</p> </blockquote> <p>ha ha. ok, and you know this, how? because of one video? the question to ask is, <em>why</em> would they switch? because of one body without a full complement of available lenses that they would need? what is the compelling reason to switch systems? without that, there's no there there, as gertrude stein might say.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickArnold Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I am going to shoot a large swim meet this weekend. I will take my 7DII and 100-400 II. I will also take my new EOS M3 and one lens to shoot heads as I get arm weary. The 100 per cent 7DII OVF is clearly larger and better than the Canon EVF on the M. I just checked out the 7DII by shooting shooting ten frames at 10 frames per second at 400mm on fast moving cars and could read the license plates clearly on all cars coming directly toward me at a quarter of a mile and closer. I could not do this with the M although I have a 55-200 that is pretty good. I bought it the M because I wanted a light camera to use at social events and to use on the street. BTW David Smith I have seen some of the pictures you posted lately. I thought them to be quite under exposed and not very distinct. I have seen those guys on the video before. One of them reviews cameras and obviously makes videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_arnold Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>Not the smoking gun, not the definitive piece of evidence, but a piece of evidence in a growing body of evidence in a continually unfolding story.</p> </blockquote> <p>uh, actually it's just a vlog by two guys from canada. the reality is that global mirrorless sales have essentially remained flat for several years, this year being no exception. as Thom Hogan noted <a href="http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/no-bottom-hit-in-cameras.html">here</a>, DSLRs outsell mirrorless overall by 3:1. it is true that mirrorless sales in the Americas are up this year, but they're down everywhere else in the world, including Japan, which is the #1 market for mirrorless. We cant even say with any certainty that mirrorless sales are taking away from DSLR sales, since those are up in the Americas this year too; where the slump is being felt the most is in the compact market, as cell phones have replaced low-end Point and Shoot cameras.</p> <p>I think it's important to analyze the actual numbers, because hyperbole and buzz is not quantifiable. Sites like Petapixel and DPReview have a vested financial interest in generating buzz, as do the Camera Store guys. No one wants to come out and say, 'well, actually, cameras are really boring now, just hold on to what you have already.' And even with all the attention DPR gave the Sony cameras this year, they also lauded the Nikon D750 -- and conclusively showed why the A7 family aren't sports cameras. If you look at DPR's list of "most popular cameras," #1 is the 5DS and #2 is the D750. I guess we can call that a growing piece of evidence in a body of evidence that DSLRs still reign supreme -- for now. Ultimately, i think we will reach a tipping point, but the enduring gravitas of Nikon and Canon can simply be explained by the fact that together, they have sold 190 million lenses.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_arnold Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>I am simply flabbergasted by the amount of resistance this topic generates. I have gone to great lengths to generate productive and fun discussion about one aspect of the gear industry. Never have I encountered such a bull headed resistance to even discussing the possibilities about what these changes may mean in the future. Simply astounding.</p> </blockquote> <p>i dont think it's a case of people being "bullheaded"; after all, most posters in the Mirrorless forum actually own mirrorless cameras, and some, like myself, havent liquidated their DSLR gear because there are still benefits to DSLRs. The resistance to your arguments can be explained rather simply: you haven't made a clear case for your points, and have tended to lean heavily toward hyperbole. When you repeat one anecdotal story as "evidence" of a larger trend without any quantifiable proof of that trend, your argument lacks credibility. When i weigh your claims against available data, it becomes apparent that there's nothing concrete backing up those claims. At all. <br> <br> Personally, i'm happy to discuss the possibilities of future technological development on cameras, but i reserve the right to do so from a pragmatic standpoint without falling into the chasm of hype. I'd love to see 5-axis stabilization on Nikon and Fuji bodies, for instance. But in terms of pros switching systems, it's just not plausible that we'll see a mass migration until a) EVF technology improves to the point where mirrorless cameras aren't a liability when shooting in continuous mode and focus tracking and b) until all the lenses a pro might need are available for mirrorless systems. As discussed before, i don't actually think that pros switching to Sony is necessary for them to gain market share, and there's little evidence to suggest their long-term strategy is to capture the pro market, at least for still photographers. For videographers, it's a slightly different story, but as videocentric as the A7 series are, Panasonic's GH series is just as videocentric and comes in at a lower price point.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_smith110 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>Eric, if Chris and Jordan are just two guys with a vlog then Thom Hogan is just a guy with a blog. Funny how Thoms interpretation of CIPA numbers is acceptable to you but what Chris and Jordan deal with daily in their store, with pro and enthusiast photographers is somehow not valid.</p> <p>Is your stance seriously that of no professional photographers using mirrorless cameras? Because that's what I seem to be getting from you.</p> <blockquote> <p>When you repeat one anecdotal story as "evidence" of a larger trend without any quantifiable proof of that trend, your argument lacks credibility.</p> </blockquote> <p>What you choose to label as anecdotal stories, almost in a derogatory manner, I choose to recognize as peoples personal experiences. I read these experiences in blogs and articles, I listen to people recount them with their own words on podcasts, and I watch people in videos describe these experiences that they themselves had had along with co workers, friends and acquaintances. These examples come from real, live people have led me to the conclusions I have come to.</p> <p>You seem to put hard data on a pedestal at the expense of listening to what other people have to say about their experiances and how this has impacted them. This behavoir is suspiciously close to some forumtograher who cant take a photo to save his life being more concerned about the specs of a lens rather then what beauty may be created by it. And as for this CIPA info, which you seem to cherish so, I'm sure that all of the companies reporting their data are 100% accurate and on the up and up. No company would ever fudge numbers or manipulate earnings, production or sales data to present a stronger, more vibrant image of themselves. And of course we can trust Thom (self proclaimed as a dude with a computer) to accurately interpret Gods Word...uh, I mean CIPA numbers to us unwashed, illiterate hoards.</p> <p>Some pros and enthusiasts have made the switch. Some more will, and others wont. Some will switch back. Some, many actually, incorporate both type of cameras (and others) in their work. But as I have said I am more interested in how this will effect Canon and Nikons view toward serious mirrorless cameras. It will be upon the release of these models where we will begin to see how those giants interpret this new technology and their vision of it for the future. This is what I am excited about and looking forward to.</p> <p>And as for data...well I don't have any hard numbers to glare coldly out at you from your computer screen Eric. But here are some cool links to people actually talking about things they have personally done and experienced.</p> <p> <p> <p> <p>So sorry, I had more links (a lot) but they didn't make it past the pnet robot. I'm sure a little searching will turn up all kinds of interesting stories.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Schaefer Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>So Dieter, you're saying Chris and Jordan are ignorant buffoons who are pontificating to no effect on matters outside their bailiwick? Or are you simply calling them outright liars?</p> </blockquote> <p>David, I think you need to back off! Please point to any statement to that effect that I have made - and stop putting words in my mouth! FWIW, they also said that they gave a guy $800 for $20K worth of equipment - am I supposed to believe that one as fact too?</p> <blockquote> <p>I have gone to great lengths to generate productive and fun discussion</p> </blockquote> <p>They aren't as much fun as you think they are - because you don't discuss but attack everyone who doesn't see things your way and share your views. Every shortcoming of current mirrorless will be overcome by "rapid development" - as if development couldn't happen on the DSLR side of things either. DSLR are at the end of the development is a statement you made repeatedly - and you have facts to back this up with?</p> <p>IIRC, then you are using mirrorless solely with adapted manual focus lenses (which is what I do too) - and for me mirrorless has some major advantage over the DSLR for that application. But since you are not using many of the advanced features of the mirrorless - how can you make a judgement whether they are better than what's available in a DSLR?</p> <blockquote> <p>The resistance to your arguments can be explained rather simply: you haven't made a clear case for your points, and have tended to lean heavily toward hyperbole.</p> </blockquote> <p>Couldn't have said it better!</p> <blockquote> <p>How about you prove to me that people aren't switching.</p> </blockquote> <p>Why would I? And how could I? I don't have access to reliable data - and neither do you! And I never made a claim that they are or aren't switching - I simply don't care whether they do or don't. If a mirrorless is what works better for anyone, then that's what they should be using. It makes no difference to me if anyone is switching/dumping gear. I have made my own evaluation based on what counts for me - and my decision was that mirrorless fills a niche for me but is unsuitable as my main system at this point in time.</p> <p>You are the one who makes all the claims: DSLR at the end of the development cycle, mirrorless the system of the future. If it indeed is, then it will prevail. If not, then it will fail. Quite likely, mirrorless and DSLR will coexist for quite some time to come. I can envision doing a lot of things to a DSLR that gives it "mirrorless" advantages without having to actually give up the mirror. Eric points to some major disadvantages of the mirrorless - and despite your statements that rapid progress is being made in the area of EVF and AF tracking technology, I have not seen a single mirrorless camera that convinces in that area (not even the latest and most expensive offering, the Leica SL).</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_arnold Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p> if Chris and Jordan are just two guys with a vlog then Thom Hogan is just a guy with a blog. Funny how Thoms interpretation of CIPA numbers is acceptable to you but what Chris and Jordan deal with daily in their store, with pro and enthusiast photographers is somehow not valid.</p> </blockquote> <p>That's a false equivalence, and you know it. Hogan was the first photo blogger and has written many camera guides, been a magazine editor, pro sports/wildlife shooter, etc., as well as one of the first people on the Internet to cover mirrorless. So his experience is unimpeachable. Also, all he's doing in the article i posted is analyzing available data, providing meaningful context instead of hyperbole. There's a huge difference between analyzing global industry numbers and jumping to a dubious conclusion based on a small sample of customers from one store. I'm shocked, actually, that you would think these are equivalent comparisons, as they are clearly not. </p> <blockquote> <p>Is your stance seriously that of no professional photographers using mirrorless cameras? Because that's what I seem to be getting from you.</p> </blockquote> <p>Nope. What i am disputing is the claim of a mass migration. The evidence just isn't there. I know a few pros and semi-pros who use mirrorless, including myself, but none who use mirrorless exclusively.</p> <blockquote> <p>What you choose to label as anecdotal stories, almost in a derogatory manner, I choose to recognize as peoples personal experiences.</p> </blockquote> <p>Fine, but that doesnt change the fact that they are anecdotal stories and not scientific claims backed up by data. You can argue over semantics all you want, but my point is that anecdotal evidence is ultimately of limited use and lacks the credibility which hard numbers provide. The Camera Guys are only offering (at best) second-hand information, anyway, and there is no way to verify their claims. </p> <blockquote> <p>You seem to put hard data on a pedestal at the expense of listening to what other people have to say about their experiances and how this has impacted them. This behavoir is suspiciously close to some forumtograher who cant take a photo to save his life being more concerned about the specs of a lens rather then what beauty may be created by it. And as for this CIPA info, which you seem to cherish so, I'm sure that all of the companies reporting their data are 100% accurate and on the up and up. No company would ever fudge numbers or manipulate earnings, production or sales data to present a stronger, more vibrant image of themselves. And of course we can trust Thom (self proclaimed as a dude with a computer) to accurately interpret Gods Word...uh, I mean CIPA numbers to us unwashed, illiterate hoards.</p> </blockquote> <p>Now this is just a silly rant. You remind me of people who claim climate change is a hoax, or religious fanatics who despise science and refuse to acknowledge its existence. And your premise, that official industry sales figures must be fudged because you want them to be, is ludicrous. Did you even think through what you were implying before you wrote it? Why would camera companies misreport sales figures which DONT currently show them in the best light? If they were going to fudge numbers, wouldnt they make it seem as if mirrorless was selling more than what the numbers say? Or that DSLRs were doing better than they actually are? I'm sorry if the shining light of truth demolishes your hyperbolic argument, but then it wasn't a strong argument to begin with.</p> <blockquote> <p>And as for data...well I don't have any hard numbers</p> </blockquote> <p>and that is precisely why your argument falls flat. The numbers are public, btw, so they aren't hard to come by, if you know how to Google.</p> <blockquote> <p> since you are not using many of the advanced features of the mirrorless - how can you make a judgement whether they are better than what's available in a DSLR?</p> </blockquote> <p>this is a key point. For me, since i do shoot with specific applications in mind, such as concert photography in low light and some PJ/event work, that last 15% or 20% of capability that mirrorless doesnt yet have is crucial. It's what has stopped me from getting an XT1. I look at the Sony series and see some nice bells and whistles, but also performance barriers which are dealbreakers for me. Other people may not have the same criteria, so for them it may make more sense to jump into mirrorless. I already stated what i think it would take for more pros to adopt these systems, but it's really kind of a worthless argument to make, to valuate/validate mirrorless' quality by the number of pros using them. That's an unquantifiable number, for one thing, and for another, it doesnt matter, since the A7RII isn't aimed at pros, but at advanced amateurs and videophiles.</p> <blockquote> <p>How about you prove to me that people aren't switching.</p> </blockquote> <p>Are we in 4th grade? This is a "I know you are, but what am I?" type argument. It's completely irrelevant. Again, if we look at the industry numbers, we can see there is no mass migration, and mirrorless sales have remained flat after peaking a few years back. So, the overall camera market is shrinking across all formats. That's what the data is telling us. If your argument is that data is irrelevant, and you prefer to extrapolate leading conclusions which agree with your preconceived thesis based on a single anecdote, well, you might as well be arguing that the earth is flat.</p> <blockquote> <p>despite your statements that rapid progress is being made in the area of EVF and AF tracking technology, I have not seen a single mirrorless camera that convinces in that area (not even the latest and most expensive offering, the Leica SL).</p> </blockquote> <p>This is also a good point. The SL is basically worthless in an action-shooting scenario, with its slow frame rate and the fact that it locks focus when using AF-C. I cant even imagine who would want one of those things, or more precisely, who would choose one over a DSLR for pro work. The Sony A7 family also has slow frame rates and similar performance barriers. There are similar performance drawbacks to every other mirrorless camera out there. I have hopes for the Fuji XPro2 that it will finally deliver in the AF tracking arena, but i think it is safe to say we're not quite there yet.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 <blockquote> <p>What you choose to label as anecdotal stories, almost in a derogatory manner, I choose to recognize as peoples personal experiences.</p> </blockquote> <p> <br> Have you ever read the definition of "anecdotal?" It doesn't appear that you know what it means.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Schaefer Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Eric, the SL can do 11fps - but at least when I tried one, didn't update the EVF at the same rate and appeared to lock focus too during the burst . It also had trouble clearing the - admittedly rather large 30-33 images - buffer despite the fast SD card (with the required specs) that was being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_smith110 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>I want everyone to know I have read the wall of text. Every word of it. I appreciate the time invested by all responders. My first reaction is to continue the block quote wars to point out the holes I see in your arguments as you have so nicely done to mine. But if I am honest with myself this isn't going to do anything more but provoke more back and forth in an unproductive way. Having said that, no, I don't agree with much of what is said.</p> <p>I'm gonna try to break this down a little differently this time. This post, as I was expecting, went south with the very first response. If you guys read that response and think it was anything but ridiculous then we have a fundamental difference in viewpoint that will probably never be fixed. So you want to talk about combative? Ive had to defend this post against stupidity from the very first response.</p> <p>Dieter, I don't understand the anger with your back off comment. I did not put words in your mouth, witnessed by they question marks in the very sentence's you quoted. I was asking you if that is how you saw Chris and Jordan. It was an honest question because if you don't believe them then you must feel they don't know what they are talking about or that they are simply fabricating the information. And as for the $800 comment...seriously man? You didn't see that Chris was obviously joking, throwing out a lowball number for laughs? C'mon man, lighten up a little.</p> <p>As for the DSLR/end of life vs MC/years of potential argument it is indeed one I believe. DSLR's can be the recipient of the usual advancement in the normal digital imaging technologies that all these cameras share such as pixel count, dynamic range, FPS and such like. But the mirrorbox assembly is going to limit what can be done with the overall design of the camera. Canon and Niikon perfected those bodies to be the apex predator years ago. And don't forget, mirrorless cameras are in themselves an advancement of the DSLR. There is no difference in a 5D and an A7 other then Sony threw out the mirror box/prism and put in a little TV. Really, that's it.</p> <p>Eric, wall of text dude. Didn't you jibe me about that once before? Seriously though, I don't how to proceed in the obvious differences we have since you have plainly stated your guy is right and unassailable, my guys are fickle and wrong. You have truth and numbers on your side, I have fanciful stories. And yet when I make the same claim you do about possible lack of veracity well suddenly I'm being ridiculous. Yes actually, you are right. Sounds a little like religious fanaticism.</p> <p>But you don't mean to tell me you actually buy into all that global warming do you?</p> <p>Yes...that was a joke. As usual we will just have to agree to disagree. I wish we could actually sit down and talk about this one on one over a meal. We don't live that far apart. I think a lot of misunderstanding is interposed when people disagree on forums. Talking to each other, face to face, produces so much more beneficial results. See, there's that people experience again.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_smith110 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 <p>I'll make an exception in your case Jeff.</p> <blockquote> <p>Have you ever read the definition of "anecdotal?" It doesn't appear that you know what it means.</p> </blockquote> <p>an•ec•do•tal (adjective) - (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather the facts or research.</p> <p>The thing is I assign <em>worth</em> to peoples accounts and reckonings. I put <em>stock</em> in what people choose to recount. Sure there is worth in hard data as well, but that only tells part of the story. And what I have been picking up from stories all over the world is that many people are starting to use mirrorless cameras, many to the exclusion of anything else. Some of them are pros.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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