Shooting Football with an A7RII

david_smith110 · November 5, 2015

'56 Olds, but the vertical center bar in the grill is gone from that one.

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I was out on a drive thur the countryside to try out the Tokina. Passed this a little ways out in a field. Had to turn around and go shoot it. Glad I did.

same combo

Carl Stone · November 5, 2015

Absolutely, Eric. Cell phones make things easier for users. Camera bodies are behind the curve in that respect.

DickArnold · November 5, 2015

I photographed high school sports for years with professional gear. There are newspaper photographers doing

amateur sports all over the country. Thousands of Dads and Moms shoot all kinds of organized active sports. We are

not just talking about pro sports. I am leaving this argument as DPReview pretty well settled it. Anyway we keep

talking past each other and the basic argument has become repetitive and to my way of thinking boring. . Having

had my own photo business and done newspaper work I am interested in what works. I shoot swim meets in major

venues. I come out of a three day meet with five or six hundred pictures. A majority of them are action centered. I

want sharp properly exposed keepers that I can process quickly for posting. The 7DII is far better for these purposes

than anything I have ever used. When Sony puts out something better I will probably try it. David your posts are well

written and you have livened up Photonet some so I thank you for that. Eric it has been a pleasure.

eric_arnold · November 5, 2015

great shot! i have the tokina 17 too... i like it, but i just dont use it enough. ive never really been able to get sharp corners on it, but in your shot, it doesn't matter.

I have looked at the mirrorless forum and the discussions are just dead. I have made a personal decision to foster some change in this.

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ha ha, that's cool. as long as they're not all "Sony A7 is the greatest thing since sliced bread." i can understand slanting a bit toward a camera/system one actually owns, but hopefully these vibrant discussions will also be well-rounded.

Cell phones make things easier for users. Camera bodies are behind the curve in that respect.

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well, that's just it, isn't it? there's been a bit of movement on this front as of late, but its unsurprising the most-forward-thinking camera company in this respect is Samsung, who also make cell phones. things may get interesting now that we're seeing cell phones intentionally try to use larger sensors and other things like that.

Ed_Ingold · November 5, 2015

The A7 entered the market along with several consumer grade lenses, but it quickly became obvious that the camera was capable of much higher performance than those lenses would allow. Part of the "lens gap" was taken up by the ability to use really great lenses with a Leica M mount, as well as Canon and Nikon SLR lenses. Within a couple of months, Sony began introducing a series of eight very high performance lenses, alone and in conjunction with Zeiss. Sony continues along this line, and Zeiss is running alongside to fill in the obvious gaps with a 21/2.8, 25/2, 35/2, 50/2 and 85/1.8, all with exceptional sharpness and rendering.

What a surprise that many of these lenses are primes, for use with a camera ideally suited for small, even manual focus lenses. It is a waste of time to criticize Sony for a lack of f/2.8 zoom lenses when it is clear most early-adapters reluctantly accept the optical compromises of zoom lenses, and then only without the sheer bulk of f/2.8 versions. The difference in DOF is very small, and one extra stop is easily made up by the high ISO power of the A7 (as good at 25,600 as my D3 is at 3200).

That said, the Sony 70-200/4 is one of my workhorses, and approaches the sharpness of my Zeiss Loxia and Batis lenses. The Sony/Zeiss 16-35/4 covers the little-used short end very nicely. The Sony 90/2.8 Macro is at the top of the DXOMARK sharpness column, and has great bokeh to boot. The only drawback is its size (3"x 5.5"), weight, and somewhat sluggish auto focus speed. Unlike the NIkon 105/2.8 AFD, it doesn't "grow" at close range, the image doesn't breath with focus, and the bokeh doesn't look like a Lego project.

Ed_Ingold · November 5, 2015

Absolutely, Eric. Cell phones make things easier for users. Camera bodies are behind the curve in that respect.

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If PNET opens a Cell Phone Forum, you can be a frequent contributor. With cell phones, everybody is an expert, nobody has an advantage, sort of a socialist version of photography.

david_smith110 · November 5, 2015

If PNET opens a Cell Phone Forum....

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You mean like this one. Another forum with no posts in it. :)

http://www.photo.net/phone-and-mobile-photography-forum/

Dick, thanks for the kind words. I'm pleased you find what I write worth reading. And to this...

Anyway we keep talking past each other and the basic argument has become repetitive and to my way of thinking boring.

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I agree.

Eric, the Tokina is not really that great in corners. Quite a bit of curvature there, as witnessed by the extended clouds in the top left of my first photo. With a bit of thought one can easily work around this depending on the subject. I just really don't shoot wide that often and my copy is actually up for sale.

a7 • Canon FDn 50/1.4

eric_arnold · November 5, 2015

I am interested in what works.

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^ THIS.

I shoot swim meets in major venues. I come out of a three day meet with five or six hundred pictures. A majority of them are action centered. I want sharp properly exposed keepers that I can process quickly for posting.

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5-600 pics over three days isn't too bad. with some sports you can burn 1500-2000 shots a game per body, easy, because you have to capture entire action sequences at high fps as plays develop -- it's not always possible to anticipate peak action. But the last part is actually really important for shooters working for media outlets or anywhere where there's a time window for viewing.

The 7DII is far better for these purposes than anything I have ever used. When Sony puts out something better I will probably try it.

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that's a great point too, because it shows a high-end APS-C camera with a modest MP count can be a pro action workhorse. But i just don't know that Sony even wants the sports market, because then they will have to spend time developing 400 and 600mm lenses and meet expectations of a tiny niche crowd, rather than a mass market. Sony doesnt have to market sports images in its ads because they're pushing sensor technology and 4k video as the pulls. it makes more sense i think for Sony to continue to go after the prosumer shooter who shoots stills and video and places resolution slightly above field performance. i actually think the A6000 type has some possibility as a sports or reportage camera because the native frame rate is so much higher. Or if they could get the A7II frame rate to 7-8fps. Have to admit I'd be pretty gassed, though, if they goosed the AF system in the RX10, which could be an excellent photojournalism camera with already great video capabilities.

david_smith110 · November 5, 2015

But i just don't know that Sony even wants the sports market, because then they will have to spend time developing 400 and 600mm lenses and meet expectations of a tiny niche crowd, rather than a mass market.

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This. Its a really good point. And don't forget, they would have to provide the Pro level service that Canon and Nikon are known for and what Pros have gotten used to. Sony probably doesn't want go anywhere near that type of headache.

Also, Sony just released a new A mount body, the A68. It is supposed to have a really good 4D autofocus system in it. We will see how that works when the reviews roll in.

a7 • Yashica ML 35/2.8

eric_arnold · November 6, 2015

With cell phones, everybody is an expert, nobody has an advantage, sort of a socialist version of photography.

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actually, in a socialist version, everyone would use russian-made leica clones.

thomas_k. · November 6, 2015

actually, in a socialist version, everyone would use russian-made leica clones.

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Why not Hasselblads made in socialist Sweden?

Ed_Ingold · November 6, 2015

Most Swedes can't afford an Hasselblad, but everybody has a cell phone.

Since I rarely use continuous focus, I neglected to check its effect on the EVF. It turns out there is a significant blackout period if continuous focus is used. Offhand, it isn't much different than that of an SLR, but I need to look at it more closely and get some numbers. There are three different continuous AF modes - AF-A, AF-C and pre-focus. In addition there are five or six AF patterns, some of which have three or four variations. Tracking is highly effective, until the subject gets outside the phase detect area, then it goes crazy (pulses in and out), probably as a warning (like a stall warning stick shaker).

I'll follow up with more information. It won't help take better football pictures, but it's not documented very well in the manual either. I'm finding a lot of easter eggs in the A7 system (e.g., auto-aperture focusing, described above).

eric_arnold · November 6, 2015

Since I rarely use continuous focus, I neglected to check its effect on the EVF. It turns out there is a significant blackout period if continuous focus is used.

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welp, there it is. if you were paying attention, you'd have noticed this was the problem all along. the thing is, with actual live sports shooting, you pretty much have to use AF-C the entire time. it would be the same thing for live music or dance photography. That's a pretty big fatal flaw for a body which on paper has impressive stats and shiny new technology like the BSI sensor and numerous PDAF points. im not sure if this can be corrected in firmware or if it requires a higher-specced EVF and a firmware tweak, but when you combine that with the slowish fps and the lack of direct focus point control, you have three big negatives for action shooting in typical conditions, four if you add the inconsistent focus tracking.

In addition there are five or six AF patterns, some of which have three or four variations.

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some of these modes were covered by both Hogan and DPReview. None seem to be ideal for shooting sports.

Tracking is highly effective, until the subject gets outside the phase detect area, then it goes crazy (pulses in and out), probably as a warning (like a stall warning stick shaker).

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The DPReview test made it clear that the effectiveness of this mode is limited, and can apparently be fooled by players wearing the same color uniforms, among other things. i dont really use this mode on my Nikons for the same reason.

None of this should really be surprising, because the camera just isn't optimized for action sports, all things considered. The AF system appears to be set up to promote EyeAF as a featured technology, which in and of itself more readily lends itself to portraiture and single-subject shooting. I'd think one could cover spontaneous puddle-jumping in a pinch, but probably not the first choice for shooting the puddle jumping olympics for SI.

I'm finding a lot of easter eggs in the A7 system

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speaking of easter eggs, apparently <a href="http://briansmith.com/using-center-button-af-on-sony-a7-a7r-a7s-a7ii-a7rii-cameras/">there is a way</a> to configure the center button to select the focus point, although its unclear to me if this would work in AF-C. you also have to press the center button first to activate this mode, which is going to be slower than the direct focus point adjustment on nikon and canon DSLRs, since you're adding an extra step. that's a classic example of the camera getting in the way, instead of just allowing you to shoot intuitively.

in any event, i think its been pretty thoroughly outlined what a mirrorless camera would need to be able to do to match a DSLR for action. Whether Sony is up to that challenge remains to be seen. Even if they did make a more action-worthy body -- probably with the 24mp A7II sensor -- they'd be going up against the D750 and 7DII and their more extensive lens options. Like i said before, does it really make sense to pursue this market and create expectation for themselves, just to ultimately snag a few more soccer dads and volleyball moms? Or will they continue their current market strategy of pushing tech innovation and finding favor with resolution junkies, videophiles, legacy lens adapters, and portrait/landscape shooters? In all likelihood, the number of dedicated sports shooters clamoring for more attention from Sony is probably fairly limited. They could make such a body just to prove they can, but then they'd also have to make pro-spec lenses for it, which isn't their current strategy.

Meanwhile, you know who will probably make a mirrorless sports camera? Fuji. and that camera will probably be the XT2. Most of what you'd need is already in place, including reasonably high 8fps, and pro-spec 2.8 lenses. if they could address EVF issues, tweak the almost-there AF-C performance, and add a direct focus point adjustment control (actually this is possible right now by assigning all 4 d-pad buttons) we could have a high-performance machine. Realistically, you dont need 42 or even 36 mp for sports as you have buffer and file transfer issues, while sticking with APS-C allows for faster constant aperture zooms than FF mirrorless.

Ed_Ingold · November 6, 2015

I never claimed it was optimized for sports. I disputed some of the reasons cited. I simply had no reason to suspect that the characteristics of the EVF would change so dramatically between single and continuous auto focus. That said, the duration of the blackout is no more than that of an SLR. The most important factor is the slow continuous rate compared to most SLRs, even low-end cameras. That was never in dispute.

I'm not convinced continuous auto focus is always the right option. Auto focus either works perfectly or is completely useless, often in quick succession. In action situations, I generally use single servo to lock on the subject, then recompose and track the action. It's better to be a little off focus than hunting wildly, as AF is apt to do without warning. In still photography, that means you lose a shot. In video, you lose the whole scene.

I bought the A7ii because it had the benefits of a Leica M9 without the handicap of rangefinder focusing and framing. Compared to my D3 kit, it was at least 30% lighter (20# v 35#) in a smaller package (fits under an airline seat instead of barely in the overhead compartment). The A7ii even uses lenses from both the Leica and Nikon kits. The image quality approaches that of my Hasselblad, which I used for travel almost to the exclusion of Nikons for landscapes and such since 2007. Stepping up, the A7Rii is not only clearly superior in image quality to the Hasselblad, it is much more flexible. MF has a limited range of lenses, nothing very wide nor very long, just plain vanilla. (Really good vanilla.)

My action photography is largely limited to creative dance and martial arts (grandchildren). For that, the Sony works just fine, partly because I go out knowing how my equipment will behave, without unwarranted assumptions.

eric_arnold · November 6, 2015

I simply had no reason to suspect that the characteristics of the EVF would change so dramatically between single and continuous auto focus.

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it's not that the EVF morphed into a different object, it's that the playback review lags in AF-C when shooting bursts. that was evident in both Hogan's review and the DPReview article. IIRC, initially, you thought it was shutter lag. then you thought it was EVF refresh rate. it was kinda funny seeing you address these issues instead of the actual one, and then post the metronome test rather than replicate the shooting conditions described, but you were pretty determined to do things your way.

That said, the duration of the blackout is no more than that of an SLR. The most important factor is the slow continuous rate compared to most SLRs, even low-end cameras.

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Again, the issue here is that it affects the shooting experience, which doesnt happen with most SLRs.

In action situations, I generally use single servo to lock on the subject, then recompose and track the action.

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why would you do that? the problem there is that your subject can move from the plane of focus. when you lock focus on a particular spot, no matter how adept you are at following action in the VF, the camera can only keep up with movement at the same distance as the focus target you've specified. obviously, that doesnt work all that well for many action sports and other things which move unpredictably. it doesnt work particularly well for tracking anything coming at you or moving diagonally and can and will fail spectacularly for continuous sequences capturing the sequence of action unless you reacquire focus and set distance in-between shots. essentially what happens is you may get the first shot or a couple shots in focus, but not the entire sequence, even with someone running or jumping in a straight line, because what is in focus at the beginning of the sequence may be at a different distance by the end, and thus outside of your focal plane.

using that method, you may find you have a higher percentage of focus accuracy if you stop down for increased depth, but it can fail using large apertures -- which is what you typically want to use for sports like basketball or football to emphasize subject isolation -- because your focus plane is just too thin. that's basically why AF-C exists, for situations such as ive just described. if sports shooters only needed to focus and recompose in AF-S, sports-oriented cameras wouldn't have continuous focus or focus-tracking modes.

My action photography is largely limited to creative dance and martial arts (grandchildren). For that, the Sony works just fine, partly because I go out knowing how my equipment will behave, without unwarranted assumptions.

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i've attempted to shoot flamenco dance using focus and recompose in AF-S with a pro DSLR. it doesnt work all that well, because the movements are so unpredictable and you need large apertures because of dim lighting most of the time. Dancers are apt to move suddenly in unanticipated ways, and trying to capture a definitive movement in single-shot AF is generally an exercise in futility. Ive also shot turf and break-dancing a bit, which is also highly-improvisational, and the same rule of thumb applies there -- even for a seasoned shooter, it's rarely possible to predict the action. Depending on the sport, martial arts can be much easier as it's generally more predictable. But for something like capoeira where there are sudden balletic moments of acrobatic leaps, rolls, and spins, i wouldnt want to rely on AF-S or focus and recompose unless my DoF was great enough to compensate for any accuracy errors.

Ed_Ingold · November 6, 2015

I grew up shooting action when pre-focus was the ONLY option.

You keep bringing up the metronome. However that is simply an objective, reproducible way of measuring lag in the EVF and shutter. You must have been a real prodigy in physics if you don't understand basic science.

The EVF doesn't review the results, it previews the shot. The video feed comes from the sensor when it is passive, not capturing an image. Get off your *** and see for yourself.

eric_arnold · November 7, 2015

I grew up shooting action when pre-focus was the ONLY option.

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congrats! we have some engraved stone tablets for you in the back.

Ed_Ingold · November 7, 2015

That would be one way for you to get your hands on an A7Rii. Make sure I'm not moving, or bring two stone tablets ;)

Slightly before my time, games were shot with Speed Graphics, at 2 frames/minute or less. My paper still had a Graflex, a wood box with a stovepipe finder, flipping mirror and a 300 mm lens, in the gear locker.

eric_arnold · November 7, 2015

Slightly before my time, games were shot with Speed Graphics, at 2 frames/minute or less. My paper still had a Graflex, a wood box with a stovepipe finder, flipping mirror and a 300 mm lens, in the gear locker.

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thanks for sharing. personally i think it's great we've come so far in technological advancements.

Ed_Ingold · November 7, 2015

We've come a long way, and expect even more from our gear.

I played with continuous focusing and tracking (among other options) last night. It's good to display the lines delineating the auto focus zone. If the subject goes outside that border, the camera locks on to something else. Just what is up to the camera. If you have a single subject, tracking works pretty well (within that rectangle). With multiple subjects, tracking can get ... fickle. You have a choice of small, medium or large starting points. Large or Center Lock seems to work best. If you had a ball in play, just about anyone in that group would be good enough for an initial focus point, if your lens were long enough to get an appropriate FOV. The lock is not easily distracted by someone wandering into view. My "players" were carrying a bow or baton, not a ball, but what the heck. At f/1.8 at 30 feet, DOF is measured in inches.

Using a camera, particularly one with new technology, is like learning a language. You study syntax and vocabulary from a book (or tape), but learn to communicate by immersion.

Ed_Ingold · November 8, 2015

Colby Brown published a set of tips for getting the most out of a Sony A7Rii, some of which directly address the problems encountered in the DPReview article. I've highlighted some of these tips below. http://www.colbybrownphotography.com/15-tips-for-getting-the-most-out-of-your-sony-a7rii/

<ul>

<li>"DRO", Dynamic Range Optimization, tends to flatten the dynamic range. It is easily reversed in POST, or turned off (at the risk of burning highlights or blocking shadows).</li>

<li>Placement of the focusing spot can be toggled on or off when assigned to the center button of the 4-way.</li>

<li>ISO Noise Reduction tends to cause blurring in the in-camera JPEG rendering at high ISO (my observation, Brown recommends turning this function OFF).</li>

<li>AF initiation can be taken off the shutter release button and assigned solely to the AF/MF/AEL button on the rear of the camera (to prevent accidental exposure).</li>

</ul>

eric_arnold · November 8, 2015

Not sure how helpful any of these tips would be for sports shooters. unfortunately, there's no quick fix for the EVF blackout/playback review lag issue when using burst shooting in AF-C, and there's still no direct focus point control -- the tip you linked to (which i already noted) requires two extra button pushes ("Simply press it once, move your AF point to the desired area of your image and press again to confirm"). there's also no current fix for the lens lockup issue when using AF-On for an extended period. Obviously you cant get more than 5 fps out of that 42mp sensor, either. Unfortunately, all of these things are field-relevant for action shooting.

Ed_Ingold · November 9, 2015

Yeah, it wasn't a very helpful tip after all. It just opens up the menu. For what I do, the "AF/MF Toggle" option for the center button gives you one-button access to manual focus. This may be useless for sports, but great for landscapes and closeups, where AF often locks on to the wrong object.

I have not experienced a lens lockup when using continuous AF. That doesn't mean it won't happen, it just hasn't happened yet. It might be an A mount adapter thing, and I'm using only native lenses.

If the NFL comes calling, I'll bring my D3 (and a warm coat).

Carl Stone · November 9, 2015

Here's a good overall look at the shortcomings of mirrorless by a pro. This article is linked to from DPR, but i included the link here to save some navigation clicks.

<http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/11/03/how-to-design-mirrorless-right/>

Don't bypass the comment section at the end of the article. There, among other things, we see that all that glitters is not gold when it comes to Sony Zeiss lenses. IOW, they don't measure up to Zeiss lenses when it comes to quality.

eric_arnold · November 9, 2015

Have to point out that MT said he wasnt going to review any more Sony cameras because the fanboys were too obnoxious.

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