Newbie - how hot do modeling lights get?

[Kat D.]

<p>I've never used strobes and have question about heat generated by modeling light.</p>

<p>I noticed that in the Profoto D1 Air, for example, the modeling light is 300w, and it looks like halogen. The 300w bulb in my Arri 300 Fresnel makes the body of the light extremely hot, very quickly.</p>

<p>I see there is a fan in the Profoto (whereas no fan in Arri) and it will shut down if overheats.</p>

<p>Here's my question: Would I be able to leave the modeling light on continuously for, say, an hour during the photo shoot? If so, will the unit become too hot to touch? I noticed when I put the D1 Air in my cart at B&H, a "suggested accessories" popup appeared which included leather gloves. Hmmm.</p>

<p>I noticed the Profoto B1 has LED modeling light, which should be cooler, but I certainly don't want to spend $2000. Not committed to the Profoto D1 Air either. Just wondering about this modeling light heat issue, because I'm used to working in natural light and trying to imagine the process with strobes. If I have to keep turning the modeling light on and off, I don't think that will work for me.</p>

[AJG]

<p>I have no experience with Profoto strobes, but my White Lightning X3200 units have 250 watt halogen modeling lights which I routinely leave on for hours at a time. They are fan cooled, and I have never had to wait more than a couple of minutes to put them away in their travel cases for location work. Profoto has an excellent reputation, so I would be surprised if you couldn't use them continuously. </p>

[rico_tudor]

<p>The D1 has fan cooling. It also has a thermal shutdown feature, although that should never be necessary. A halogen bulb is indeed a serious heat source at higher wattage. I use Profoto packs, and my heads are fit with 65W, 250W, 300W and 500W halogens. If the heads are confined by certain accessories like the snoot, temperatures rise and so does cooling level (louder fan noise). Other attachments like the ProBox cannot be used with 500W modelling—not surprising since 500W modelling and the Magnum dish can cook your dinner! In general, dish reflectors (no socks) are completely fine, as are softboxes with top ventilation, when the modelling light is enabled indefinitely at full power.</p>

[Jochen_S]

<p>A 300W halogen lightbulb means 291W TDP.<br>

I don't have Profoto heads with such bulbs but I suppose you can keep the modelling lights on for an entire shift. Ordinary halogen lamps are designed for such a purpose too. and usually don't have active cooling built in.</p>

[scott_holt2]

<p>I'm a newbie as well, and have been asking a lot of the same questions. One thing I considered was not just the heat, but how I was going to power my lights. For a number of reasons, I have gravitated to lights which are primarily battery powered.<br>

If you plan to use batteries, those watt ratings are more than just heat; they are vampires sucking the juice out of your power source. Some makers of battery packs specifically warn against using modeling lights, or advise to keep them on minimally.<br>

This is one of the reasons you see LEDs in units designed for battery power (like the B1). LEDs use an order of magnitude (or more) less power for the same light output. On the downside, though watt for watt an LED can generate more light, lumen for lumen they are more expensive up front.<br>

For my part, I am just learning to light without the benefit of modeling lights.</p>

 

[Kat D.]

<p>Andrew, Rico, Jochen, and Scott: Thank you very much for your answers. Appreciate your input.</p>

<p>Scott: You are brave to try to light without the modeling lights! Coming from natural light or continuous artificial light, I'm nervous about even being limited to the modeling lights which are just approximation. The whole strobe experience seems so foreign to me. But continuous light has its own set of problems......</p>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>Ive been shooting with studio strobes for over 20 years and heat from the modeling lights is not normally an issue.<br /><br />My Novatrons came with 100 watt bulbs, which I replaced with 150 watt Halogen because 100 wasn't bright enough. The only time I've had an issue is when I'm using a snoot and the heat builds up inside because it's almost entirely enclosed. It did start to soften the plastic housing on the strobe on one occasion, but it took a couple of hours to get to that point. Since then, I do turn off the modeling light on after getting the hair light (which is what I use the snoot for) lined up if I'm going to be shooting for a long time.<br /><br />Other than that particular situation, I have never had a problem, either with umbrellas, softboxes or grids. I think anytime the bulb is open to the air it should cool fine. 300 watts is unuusaly high wattage for a modeling light but on a strobe with a cooling fan it should be fine.<br /><br /></p>

[AJG]

<p>Modeling lights are an approximation, but with good quality strobes it is a reasonably close and useful one, especially when you are learning how to use strobe lighting. They aren't a substitute for a good flash meter if you want to get exact lighting ratios, but they are extremely helpful with finding stray reflections or unexpected shadows.</p>

 

[Kat D.]

<p>Thanks, Craig, for your reassurance.</p>

<p>Andrew: I do have a flash meter, so no problem there. I usually shoot film, so that's why I'm nervous about no wysiwyg (and why I told Scott he was brave to shoot w/o modeling light.....I forgot that with digital, you can immediately look at what you're getting). But I'm tired of struggling with not having enough light, either because of the weather for natural light or because continuous lighting isn't powerful enough.</p>

<p>On another subject: I'm worried about the sound of strobes making subjects nervous or more self-conscious. What is everyone's experience in that respect? I'm not shooting professional models. </p>

[AJG]

<p>The noise usually isn't much of an issue, although the bright flash of a powerful strobe at high power can be a bit of a shock to some. On my X 3200's, I can leave the modeling light on while the strobe recycles, and I usually set my main modeling light to stay on continuously, which seems to help with adapting to the flash. One hint--if your subjects wear contact lenses, have them take them out for the session. In my experience, people who wear contact lenses tend to blink a lot more than people who don't, and if you're shooting film you won't find out for sure until you process it. Good luck! </p>

[Kat D.]

<p>Hi Andrew. That makes sense, that the sudden light can be more shocking than the sound. Thanks for the tip about the contact lenses. I will try to remember that!</p>

[scott_holt2]

<p>Brave? No... learning to work with light without a modeling light just means doing things differently. With a modelling light, since you have more immediate way to visualize what the outcome will be, you can talk to your subject... get them to move, see what subtle movements (of either the lights or the model) will do to the shadows.<br>

Without them, I have to take a lot of notes, meter everything, make sketches, and review those as I review the images in post (well, OK, I have to *try* to do all that and control my 8 year daughter/primary assistant/model). Yes, I know I could view them more quickly with tethering - and next on the wishlist is a laptop for that purpose. Point is, it is possible.<br>

I definitely see the value in having them, and if budgets were not an issue I would just have two kits. One more portable and one more capable. For a number of reasons, portable won for now.</p>

[Bill C]

[Kat] "On another subject: I'm worried about the sound of strobes making subjects nervous or more self-conscious. What

is everyone's experience in that respect? I'm not shooting professional models."

 

Not much of a problem in my experience, which includes tens of thousands of individuals in high volume (non school)

shooting. Even strong flash is not normally much of an issue; some children are initially startled, but you already have the

shot before they can react. After a couple of shots, they're typically ignoring the flash. Now I'm speaking of a normally lit

room, and not over a couple thousand watt-seconds; if you put them in a dim room and you "hide" behind bright lights,

could be a different story. It's the difference between the ambient light and flash that can cause discomfort. Aside from

that, the way you react can influence them; if you want them to be concerned about the flash, act like you are, and vice

versa.

 

Regarding blinks and film, if you're shooting off of a tripod or some sort of camera stand, such that you are looking directly at the subject(s), you can probably train yourself to notice blinks under the flash. That's what we did in the high volume world, shooting loads of 70mm film; we didn't want to waste it. If you have your eye glued to the eyepiece of an SLR camera, not much you can do except to shoot several times more frames than you actually need (I HATE to shoot portraits that way, because of the uncertainty; photojournalistic work is a different story, though).

 

If you find that someone keeps blinking on you, more than likely you are somehow giving a signal that you are about to shoot - you are telegraphing your intentions. I recall one time where a person was doing that with me - for 6 or 8 shots in a row they blinked, even though I was being careful not to give any signals. Finally I moved the remote trip handle behind my back and the blinks stopped.

 

By the way, whatever you buy, make sure it's affordable for you - you may well find yourself wanting a second unit. And if this is a business, you ought to have a backup unit, or at least be willing to fall back on your previous shooting method. Best wishes on your purchase.

[Kat D.]

<p>Hi Bill. Your experiences with strobes are so interesting. High volume on film must've been quite stressful. I use film most of the time myself and hate the digital style of shooting a zillion shots when just a few thoughtful shots would suffice. But having the pressure of getting it right...on film....in high volume situation would be stressful indeed. What do you mean by 70mm film? Hasselblad X-pan? Or was that a typo and you meant 60mm (120 film)?</p>

<p>Interesting story about the blinking and hiding the remote trip handle. Photographer as psychologist....</p>

<p>Good point about budgeting for a second strobe.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

 

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>White LED lamps are becoming available in a wide variety of fittings, some imitating the shape and light distribution of "conventional" filament bulbs. My local bargain store now has some that are a direct replacement for bi-pin and G9 halogen bulbs. They cost no more than 2 or 3 UK pounds (~$5 US). So no reason at all why Profoto should put a hefty premium on flashes fitted with LED modelling lamps.</p>

<p>+1 to Bill's suggestion of looking directly at the subject once you've composed and focused, rather than peering at the subject through the camera eyepiece. You're much more aware of the sitter(s) and can communicate with them better than you can as a semi-mechanical Cyclops.</p>

<p>Bill definitely meant 70mm film. Invented for the ciné industry to shoot widescreen movies, it was quickly adapted to still cameras for bulk shooting. Particularly by Hasselblad in its 70mm backs for the 500EL - as taken to the moon. 70mm film has sprocket holes down the side like overgrown 35mm film, so its useable frame area is similar to the 58mm width of 120 rollfilm. AFAIK it's still available as ciné stock.</p>

[eric_goldstein1]

<p>I've rented the Profoto D1 Air and had them running with the modeling light going for up to two hours at time with no problem. As I was renting them I didn't have a warning about their heat, and there wasn't an issue with putting them away at the end of the shoot.</p>

The shoots for which I was renting them were Bar/Bat Mitzvah formals (so obviously not professional models) and there is no problem with the sound of the strobes making the subjects uncomfortable it's not that loud. Unless the room is really really dark the light difference between the strobes and the ambient lighting shouldn't be that great. Keep in mind that unlike hot shoe flash which can blind, the lights this powerful are best diffused further reducing the blinding flash effect.

[Bill C]

[Kat] " What do you mean by 70mm film? Hasselblad X-pan? Or was that a typo and you meant 60mm (120 film)?"

 

Hi, like Rodeo says, it was 70mm. I don't know about the history of the format, but we used 100 foot rolls of non-

perforated Kodak pro color neg. The cameras were a special breed, known as long-roll portrait cameras, made for

industrial level use. They're mostly unknown on photonet except to people like Henry Posner and a few others;

Photocontrol's Camerz Classic and Beattie Portronic were examples. With all due respect, I don't think Hasselblads would

hold up.

 

I'm not sure I would call it stressful so much as just a lot of hard work. At least once you get pretty competent (which

anyone is after the first 10 thousand or so). But those days are pretty much long gone; good photos are readily available

to nearly anyone today, at least in the US.

[Kat D.]

<p>Rodeo Joe and Bill C : Fascinating. I had never heard of Photocontrol's Camerz Classic or the Beattie Portronic. After your first post, Bill, I quickly googled "70 mm film" and got info about movie film. Didn't see mention of it being used in still cameras (but I just quickly looked).</p>

<p>In case others are interested, here is some info about the cameras Bill C mentioned. Very cool.<br>

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Camerz<br>

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Beattie</p>

<p>[bill C] "...good photos are readily available to nearly anyone today...." Well, I would say it's easier for someone to make a competent photo, but I don't know if that means it is good :) Though I'm a newbie regarding strobes, I'm not a newbie photographer. I'm old enough to know what the world was like before digital. In addition to taking photos for many years myself, I worked as a design director for a magazine. As photographers went digital, quality went down. Also, we were forced to use more amateur photography, because, of course, everyone and their grandmother were now taking pictures. Don't get me going.</p>

<p>I have a lot of respect for older film photographers, such as many here.....</p>

<p>Eric: Glad to hear you could run the D1 Air modeling light for two hours without problem. That's how long I would probably want to run them. Also thanks for your experience re the sound and light not being too upsetting to subjects.</p>

<p>I actually ordered the strobe today, will be here in about a week. Then the fun begins....</p>

<p>Thanks, everyone.</p>

[Bill C]

"Well, I would say it's easier for someone to make a competent photo, ..."

 

That's sort of what I meant. But when you're making enough of them, a certain number are gonna be good enough to

satisfy most people, especially viewed on a computer or phone display. When you work with prints, the bar sorta gets

raised, mainly (IMO) because they can now be seen side-by-side with other prints - the differences stand out more.

 

Hope you have a good time with the flash. (Now you're on the journey to learn how much the color of different lights vary,

and what you have to do to get your flash to fit in; enjoy the trip.)

[rico_tudor]

<p>Hasselblads with 70mm (perforated) film were the MF camera of choice for NASA, so I imagine they were generally reliable. :-) Any terrestrial Hassy could use a 100' film load with the A70 back, although a motorized body would be the most convenient. A past thread here on PN: http://www.photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00YHgR</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>All the NASA 'blads that went into space were completely stripped, modified and re-built by hand using special or zero lubes. I don't think they can be compared to off-the-shelf 500Cs and the like, which certainly have a reputation for being a bit fragile. In any case NASA were only looking for short-term use of a few hundred frames, and considered the camera bodies disposable items.</p>

<p>I wonder what they're using these days?</p>