Pre ai and ai lenses on D40, 60, 3000 etc.

[mervyn_wilmington]

<p>From other postings, some members may have seen my interest in 'earlier' lenses mainly for use on my recently acquired F2.</p>

<p>I have bought two such type lenses for it. Both are in excellent condition and from dealers who offer good warranties. However, other dealers provide only very limited 'quick return' arrangements, especially when a lens may be at a bargain price. Being able to check the lens immediately can be very important. If very speedy film processing is available, that can be an answer. It isn't available to me.</p>

<p>With limited functions, these lenses can be mounted on the D40, 60, 3000, etc. Such bodies can be had for next to nothing. This would seem to provide a ready check on the performance of a lens.</p>

<p>Views and experiences would be much appreciated.</p>

[paul_k1664875007]

<p>Your statement that PRE AI lenses can be used on bodies like the D40, D60 and D3000 is explicitly incorrect</p>

<p>They lack the Ai coupling ridge which allows automatic aperture control with the bodies (and most modern DSLR's) you mention, and if mounted nevertheless, will seriously damage the non retractable Ai-lever on the lens mount of those bodies, lens mount itself, and possibly the lens as well, with all ensuing repair costs.</p>

<p>Only DSLR a PRE Ai lens can be used on without risk of damaging the Ai-lever is the Nikon DF<br>

<br /> Please read<br /> https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5366/~/what-is-the-difference-between-an-ai-lens%2C-an-ai-s-lens%2C-and-non-ai-lens%3F</p>

<p>Ai and Ai-S lenses can be used on older DSLR's like the D40, D60 and D300 albeit with stop down lightmetering only (shoot, check on the LCD, adjust, and shoot again until you like what you see / the histogram says the exposure is correct).</p>

<p><br /> On more modern DSLR's like the D3 and D800 Nikon has a custom menu for entering a limited number of non chipped Ai and Ai-S lenses (focal length and max aperture) which, after being selected manually for each lens when used, can then be taken into account by the camera during light metering (and which will show accordingly in the EXIF data)</p>

<p>So if you want to check your PRE Ai and Ai/Ai-S lenses on a DSLR, forget about the PRE Ai lenses (unless you have a DF), and go ahead with the Ai and Ai-S lenses on any other Nikon DSLR (with the above mentioned limitations)</p><div></div>

[mervyn_wilmington]

<p>Paul - I do not think I am incorrect.</p>

<p>It is true that pre ai and ai lenses will not mount on many dslrs, but I do not think that is the case with the models I have mentioned. There are several pages on the web saying that there is no problem.</p>

<p>For example, Thom Hogan, in his chart, says that both pre ai and ai mount on the D40 etc, but with no meter.</p>

<p>No doubt other members will have knowledge of this issue.</p>

[Wouter Willemse]

<p>As far as I know, the Pre-AI lenses can indeed be mounted on the D40(x) and D60, and probably D3000 too. Not sure which other cameras, but basically given that these cameras have zero mechanical linkage with lenses, there is nothing a Pre-AI lens can break. The warning to not use pre-AI lenses is definitely true for cameras that do with with Ai lenses (D7000 and up basically), as they do have the mechanical linkage; probably cameras with AF-motor, a bit of caution won't hurt either. But the D40 etc. do not have any of that.<br>

I've read in multiple places that people use pre-AI lenses without issues on these cameras - which makes me belief that Nikon is simply on the cautious side of things when they state that pre-AI lenses work on no DSLR whatsoever.</p>

[andylynn]

Yes, you can use those on a D60/3000/etc. - the cheapest DSLRs. They have no coupling ring to break. However, you get

no meter at all and manual focus is terrible on those bodies. My advice, if you want to use those lenses without paying for

a DF or doing AI conversion, is to find a used Sony Nex 5n and a cheap adapter. You can use A or M mode exposure with

metering and it's much easier to focus.

[alan_olander1664878205]

<p>You are correct. Paul is incorrect. You'll have no metering, is all, as others have said.</p>

[paul_k1664875007]

<p>Guess you guys all know better then Nikon itself<br>

see page 98 from the manual<br>

https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/14266/~/users-manual---d40x---guide-to-digital-photography<br>

<br /><br /></p>

<div></div>

[mervyn_wilmington]

<p>Andy - your comment about terrible focussing. Perhaps wrongly, I had the impression that green spot or rangefinder type focussing was available because that doesn't rely on coupling. As I say, I may be wrong. Any other views on the point?</p>

<p>I already have a Fuji XT1 and could get a mount/converter for that. </p>

[Wouter Willemse]

<p>Paul, we know what is in the manuals. We also know that Nikon will be cautious about what they put in a manual (as I already hinted at in my previous reply), because they will be held responsibile, and they have a certain obligation to test compatibility, if they want to put this in the manual.<br /> Point is also there are a fair number of a pre-AI lenses that will absolutely not work - the ultrawides that extend into the body that need the constant mirror lockup. Making a full complete list of what does and does not work for the manual of an entry-level camera, for lenses people are extremely unlikely to use - it all costs time, effort, hence money.</p>

<p>So Nikon does the safe and cheap thing, and simply states it is not compatible. That does not necessarily mean it is incompatitable, but it means they do not support it and do not ensure it works in any way. All user guides from all brands work like this - they want to protect themselves from warranty claims, and that's better done this way.<br>

____________</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I had the impression that green spot or rangefinder type focussing was available because that doesn't rely on coupling</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It should be available, but the green dot isn't always very accurate, and the actual viewfinder of the entry level bodies is dim and small, and will not give a very useful impression on whether things are in focus or not. Your Fuji will probably work better indeed, especially since you already own it :-)</p>

[Matthew Currie]

<p>As a person who uses pre-AI lenses on a D3200, I think I can speak with some clarity here.</p>

<p>Cameras that have no AI meter follower and have the later style minimum aperture switch will not be damaged by the deep skirt of a pre-AI lens. Be aware that the little sensor tab which detects minimum aperture on some lenses with aperture rings will be touched by that skirt in most cases, though not all. Many non-Nikon lenses have shallower skirts which do not engage the switch, and some early Nikon lenses (My 28/3.5 among them) with screw-free mounting flanges, also do not. T and T4 mounts, and K type extension rings do not (but do not ever use an unmodified K1 with AF lenses)</p>

<p>If your camera is like the D3200 and that switch is operated by pressing down, a pre-AI lens will work fine on it. It's possible that over a long period of time the lens will wear the top of it, but this is unlikely. On this camera, that switch is required only on AF (and AIP) lenses that have chips and aperture rings. It transmits no information on an unchipped lens, whether it's pushed or not.</p>

<p>If your camera is like certain of the older AF film cameras, or the Fuji digitals based on them, and that switch is operated by pressing sideways, you cannot use a pre-AI lens, because it will interfere with that switch. The most basic AI modifications usually do not mill out that area, so even an AI modified lens may not work, unless the ring has been milled correctly to clear that switch when the lens is mounted.</p>

<p>I do not know at what point Nikon changed that sensor switch from sideways to up and down actuation. If you have any doubt about your particular camera, check that switch: if it pushes down, you're safe. If it pushes only sideways, do not mount pre-AI lenses, and that includes those modified for the AI follower unless they are milled correctly.</p>

<p>As for how useful those lenses are, it's your choice. Focusing can be difficult without a magnifier, but I like some of them, and I like the fact that the lowliest of the DSLR's can function with almost anything that ever had a Nikon F mount.</p>

<p>e.t..a. by the way, just for clarity, "automatic aperture control" generally refers to lenses that leave the aperture open while viewing. A lever inside the camera drops the aperture to the set value when you shoot. The levers in the lens and camera have remained essentially the same since the original Nikon F, and any automatic lens will be automatic still. It has nothing at all to do with the aperture ring or the meter coupling. My 1962 vintage 28 mm. lens, though unmetered, remains "automatic" on the D3200. </p>

[andylynn]

<p>Mervyn,</p>

<p>The green spot on a consumer DX camera is not particularly accurate, and those cameras have lousy small pentamirror finders that are not good for focusing by eye. In your case, I would definitely put an adapter on the X-T1 instead of buying a camera for the lenses. The adapters don't care whether the lens is AI, and you'll have a better focusing experience and use of the camera's meter, and an X-T1 is just better than a D60 anyway. If you get really interested in using manual focus lenses you can get a speed booster.</p>

[andylynn]

<p>Oh, but one thing you don't get with adapters in control of the aperture lever. The lens goes to the set aperture and stays there, rather that closing while the camera is taking a shot.</p>

[Matthew Currie]

<p>Just to clarify my earlier post, here is a picture of a pre-AI lens that has been milled to fit on any Nikon without damage. The sharp square tab on some lenses can dent the switch on the D3200, so I have made mine with a rounded ramp, which still actuates the switch at minimum aperture, even though no camera I own uses it. This lens interacts with any minimum aperture switch safely, and will actuate any AI meter follower correctly too.</p><div></div>

[mervyn_wilmington]

<p>Andy - please could you take me through your last posting about when the lens stops down and the consequences? Is it not potentially major issue, or am I missing something?</p>

<p>Many thanks for the other helpful contributions. It is not unusual for experienced amateurs to have better knowledge than some professionals or makers. You don't have to struggle on some occasions to see that the makers guidance is simply not correct or has been simplified.</p>

[andylynn]

<p>If you put a lens on an adapter, the adapter doesn't interface with the prong that causes the lens to stop down just before shooting - it just leaves that prong hanging, same as if the lens were not on a camera at all. The result is that when you turn the aperture ring, the aperture opens and closes and stays that way. So you take an f/1.4 lens and set it to 5.6, and now you're both focusing and shooting with the lens at 5.6. Some people don't like this because it makes it a bit more difficult to focus precisely, but on the other hand you're always seeing the true DOF and exposure when you're looking through the finder. Also, if the aperture is a bit contaminated with oil (so that it moves slowly but is not completely stuck) you can use it on an adapter, but it would not work on a Nikon because when the camera releases the aperture prong the aperture would not stop down quickly enough to keep up with the shutter.</p>

[mervyn_wilmington]

<p>Thanks Andy. That is very helpful. I thought it might be the case. I suppose, if the object were static, there is the option of focussing at full aperture and then stop down.</p>

<p>Having regard to the possible problems with the 'cheap' prisms on a D3200 etc, I wonder how bright the viewfinder would be at f1.4 on that camera, and the same lens stopped down to, say, f8 on a Nikon/Fuji set-up?</p>