mervyn_wilmington Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 <p>A little while ago, I posted about some soft images I was getting with my new Fuji camera and 18-55 lens. These were occasional, but had been taken in 'perfect' lighting and with settings that should have produced first class images.</p> <p>The responses were to the effect that (1) some members had never had this sort of problem, and (2) that others had had this problem and it happened when ois was on and a high shutter speed was used (above 1/300). One member also said that there was a similar issue with some Nikon lenses, but at even higher shutter speeds. I then found other advice concerning this lens that it was better to shut off the ois above 1/300, because the ois and auto focus 'conflicted'.</p> <p>I have had no such problems with my two prime lens - without ois.</p> <p>I have arranged for my 18-55 lens to go back to Fuji UK to be checked.</p> <p>A friend visited this weekend. He had just got a Panasonic GX7 with the 14-42 lens. We went out to try it. It was a bright morning. The settings were aperture, iso800, f6.3, jpg. He took about 30 images of a variety of subjects. </p> <p>We returned and loaded the images. We were remarking on the high quality for the 'kit' lens, when we got to one with exactly the soft image issue I had been experiencing with the Fuji lens. There were a couple more. The subject matter and the data suggested they should have been perfect. Indeed, other images with identical data were perfect.</p> <p>Is this 'soft image' issue, in truth, erratic but quite wide spread? </p> <p>Comments, etc would be welcomed.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 <p>I believe the GX7 has in-body stabilization so you are talking about two different scenarios here. However, I can duplicate this situation because I have Olympus and Panny m4/3 cameras, one of which relies on in-body stabilization and one of which uses stabilized lens technology. And I get the occasional soft image too, with either camera!<br> Thing is, I don't put it down to technological conflicts. I think that in the real world, even with our super dooper all bells and whistles cameras, things go wrong. Maybe the AF just hunts a bit at the wrong moment, maybe the operator has a slight twitch that overwhelms the IS, maybe there's a small earthquake. Anyway, sometimes a duff image is captured, and that's why chimping has evolved - so we can check it and do it again. Try and be happy in an imperfect world.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Katz Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Most of the time soft images are as a result of missed focus, usually as a result of user error. As someone who started taking photos with manual focus and match needle exposure equipment, it is natural for me to aim my AF sensor at the part of the subject with contrast and distinct lines, which helps AF systems with fast accurate focus. Even today most AF systems will struggle if you point an AF sensor at a blank, featureless subject. The other major cause is camera shake and/or subject movement, the latter not addressed by image stabilization technology. Most users underestimate what shutter speed is needed to obtain critically sharp results, especially if you are viewing high megapixel images on screen at 100%. The technology is not perfect and the user needs to know how to get the most out of it. I have a photo of my 26 year old (at age 13) and a friend holding up their 1st place soccer tournament trophies, and when reviewed on screen at magnification it is obvious that the camera (solely due to my error) focused on the background between the two boys. That photo was taken under ideal conditions so the only thing to blame for that error is me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerrySiegel Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Q:s this 'soft image' issue, in truth, erratic but quite wide spread? A:Yes and No..But even if we say yes it may not satisfy your observations ( stated to be an issue) or pin down factors at play. Erratic =Me, usually :-). I would eliminate the likelihood that soft or unsharp image in an autofocus situation is due to focus problems. When you let the camera determine focus if it looks good in the finder then it should look sharp in the final image. Test using the focus magnification function to see if it is sharp. No, I think the image stabilization is the least likely thing you are experiencing. If you want to test it,make a series of controlled tests of an easy to focus object with ten consecutive shots and see if there is some random effect at play. A random fault is the most improbable scenario from where I sit...others may have different experience. See if you can duplicate the phenomenon in a controlled trial or you will never have a clue I am thinking....such is photography. Make a little chart to go with each image and have an observer look at the results on a TV screen perhaps....with EXIF data alongside. Auto focus conflict with image stabilization, uh uh, unlikely hypothesis. But testable. With my two mirrorless cameras I can get a soft item, with or without image stabilization, with any of my lenses,fixed or zoom, but it usually means focus error by the camera and or me.... Even try manual focus as one part of your scientific scheme if you want to do it up right. And of course re read Kenneth Katz above... I mean we all miss focus and cannot point to the gear for most of the time.. Your lens will likely get sent home 'unculpable' i bet. Of course a kit lens is still a kit lens, but stuff happens. -g- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 <p>Just a nit, the kit Panasonic 14-42 has built-in OIS in the lens, therefore the in body stabilization will not activate. Also, there's no switch on that particular lens to turn it off or on, it always on. I'm not sure and would have to look if its possible to deactivate in the menu, but default will be "on".<br> Also, "the subject matter and data were perfect", not sure what is meant by that. I don't think data will tell you if your image is in perfect focus. Every digital auto-focus camera will at times just not pick up the focal point and will hunt focus. I've never done a shoot where out of a few hundred photos there are a couple where I pressed the shutter when not in perfect focus. I would say that such a rigorous expectation of perfect auto focus is probably not tenable. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn_wilmington Posted August 11, 2015 Author Share Posted August 11, 2015 <p>I am grateful for the helpful comments. Perhaps I can make some general observations.</p> <p>I bought my first 'proper' camera in 1958. It was 35mm with an uncoupled rangefinder. Since then I have had/used Nikon/Canon/Minolta/Fuji 35mm film cameras, and Hasselblad, Rollei, Mamiya, Bronica medium format.</p> <p>For the last 30 years I have mainly used 'big' Nikons, during the last 12 being digital.</p> <p>Of course, anyone who assumes they can go out and take 100 shots and find everyone perfect will be in cloud cuckoo land. There will always be an odd technical or user error. I had a few with my Nikons, but a very low proportion.</p> <p>Let me give some more recent examples. We live in the country. I go out of our front door and I am in the fields. I have a short walk, about half a mile out and back over the same route. A couple of weeks ago, I took the Fuji with the 18-55. On the outward journey, the lens had the ois off. On the return it was on. Otherwise, all settings were the same. The shots I took were essentially the same, as were the lighting conditions. I invariably use aperture priority in a range that should give quality images, always checking the shutter speed - for obvious reasons.</p> <p>Of those taken on the outward journey, everyone one was sharp or very sharp. Of those on the return journey, about 30% were showing softness.</p> <p>A couple of days ago, we went to the Bishop's Palace at Bishop Auckland. I took around 70 pictures, nearly all inside in poor light. No flash used. The camera had essentially the same settings as before, except the ois was on and iso was 1600 or 3200. Even though the conditions were difficult, the resultant pictures were very good.</p> <p>Yesterday, we went for a walk round the gardens of Constable Burton Hall. I took about 30 shots. Some were of the garden, some the hall, some people. Lighting conditions were good or better: ois was on.. Around a third of the images were soft. <br> Let me make a couple of final observations.</p> <p>If I were to go back, say, 15 years when I was still using film Nikons, I had my films developed and printed at the same time, the prints being 18"x12". At that size and cost, you have to be confident that you will get proportion of quality results. I rarely got more than a couple of 'duds'.</p> <p>I also, currently, have a couple of Fuji compacts. I have one in my pocket when out and about. The settings are essentially the same as with my other cameras. I rarely get soft shots, the usual problem being noise. I am 73, but, lest anyone might think otherwise, I don't shake or twitch!</p> <p>Any further views, please?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 <p>Ok, thanks for the update on the shooting info. So are you saying with the OIS "off" you found the results much as you expected they would be, but with it on you were having about 30% error. You were stationary when taking all these, not walking or riding? And the subjects were stationary too? If that's so, you need to have the Lens looked at I would think, but what's weird is that you good results in low light with the stabilizers on. Can you send it in for checking? That is a puzzler.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn_wilmington Posted August 11, 2015 Author Share Posted August 11, 2015 <p>Thanks for your further comments Barry.</p> <p>In your original posting, you asked about <em>subject matter and data were perfect.</em> Can I first explain that what I meant was that I was stationary and so was the subject matter. That was well illuminated, and had the characteristics that finding focus should have been easy. An iso in the 400/800 range would have been used; the aperture would be around f8; the shutter speed would have been such that, even without ois, there should have been no 'shake' issues.</p> <p>Let me get further up-to-date. Near to us there is a stone building with a burglar alarm on the gable. It has lettering on it. I took two pictures. ISO 400; 55mm; f8. On one the shutter speed was recorded as 1/210, the other 1/200. They were taken within seconds of each other from exactly the same spot, ie without moving. One had ois on, the other not.</p> <p>Apart from substantial cropping, I have done no post processing. The lettering on the one with ois on, is decidedly soft/blurred. The one with it off is clear, bearing in mind the degree of cropping/enlargement.</p> <p>Perhaps further experiment is needed, but I am getting the impression that at really low shutter speeds ois works. At what might be 'medium' shutter speeds - rather than high which has been mentioned by some people - the image is very soft.</p> <p>I have already made arrangements for the lens to go back to Fuji. I have been trying to narrow the issue about the cause of the softness before I did so.</p> <p>Thanks again.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 <p>It definitely seems like inconsistent results. I wonder if it the OIS is somehow effecting so called shutter shock. Do the images just look blurry, out of focus, or do they look like the camera moved? But really, I don't have a clue what could be causing it, so your course is probably best. Maybe someone else has. Let me ask this does it make any difference if you manually focus the lens? I do think in certain situations if there aren't strong lines or something for the detection system to grab onto, it will hunt focus, and it can happen from the same shot to another in the same place if focus is lost in the intervening moments. But 30% seems a little high.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerrySiegel Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Send BOTH the lens and camera to Fuji repair under warranty along with some high quality JPEG files of what you are experiencing to demonstrate. As well as your verbal observations you have stated in this thread. A mystery. You know of course that there is a Facebook Fuji group that might have some added ideas. Of course we can't rule out some idiosyncratic problem, but if it has appeared elsewhere it will be mentioned on dpreview forum or on the FB Fuji pages. Good luck. I have not noticed any systemic problem as you described and that is good. Aloha -g- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn_wilmington Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 <p>Barry and George; thanks for your further comments.</p> <p>Barry - none of the shots look as though the camera had moved. They are simply out of focus. It happens where the characteristics of the subject should create no difficulty in achieving focus.<br> George - I do not think it is the body. I also have an XE2, and it was on that where I first experienced the problem. The problem has been recorded elsewhere, including on the Fuji part of this forum. It is also mentioned in the rockynook book on the XT1. The difference is though that in those cases it is said that it happens at above 1/300. Mention is also made of it happening with some Nikons at above 1/500.</p> <p>Thanks again.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn_wilmington Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 <p>Further to my last posting, 'out of interest', I have now found what is said in the XT1 book.</p> <p><em>Please note that the OIS can also introduce camera shake especially at high shutter speeds. This adverse effect is more likely to occur in OIS mode 1 than 2. However, OIS mode 1 is more effective when used at very slow shutter speeds, such as 1/15th, 1/8th, or even 1/4.</em></p> <p>He recommends -</p> <p><em>Only use OIS when necessary. When you are using fast shutter speeds that don't require image stabilization, you can safely turn the OIS off to eliminate it as a potential interference.</em></p> <p>My point is that I am getting this problem at below fast shutter speeds, but, seemingly, not at very slow ones!</p> <p>Fascinating or what!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanford Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 <p>The ONLY reason I leave IS on in my XE1 is because turning it off produces a symbol of a hand with a line through it on the screen and in the viewfinder.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_arnold Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 <p>i actually havent experienced any issues with OIS and fast shutters using the 18-55.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 <p>I just read that shutter shock will effect some mirrorless cams some of the time at shutter speeds of 1/100 - 1/250 when OIS is engaged. But using the electronic shutter solves that problem. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn_wilmington Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 <p>Barry - that is interesting. Where did you find this, please?</p> <p>Sometimes it is said to be shutter shock, sometimes ois interfering with the af. Other members have understandably said that problems of this sort are usually attributable to 'normal' focus issues. That may be so, but how might one know? Could the problem I am experiencing be more widespread than thought? I say that bearing in mind that it does not happen on every shot.</p> <p>Regarding the electronic shutter, I thought that was only available on some cameras, and operated at very high shutter speeds?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn_wilmington Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 <p>I don't want to make a 'thing' of this, but I am now satisfied that a good number of people are experiencing this problem, mainly, it seems with the 18-55. There was, for example, a long thread on DP Review starting Aug 25 2013: <em>18-55 with OIS on = blurred images.</em></p> <p>Whether some examples of this lens are affected more than others is not clear.</p> <p>There are also suggestions that if you put the camera on a tripod, the softness will be even worse!</p> <p>I'm afraid these optical and mechanical inter-relationships in lenses are well beyond my expertise. However, it would be useful if someone with that expertise could furnish a paper on the subject. It would be even more useful if lens manufacturers acknowledged there can be this problem, and advise better on how and when OIS should be used. </p> <p>At the moment, I only feel comfortable with its use at very slow speeds. I took another series of images yesterday at 'normal' speeds. Sometimes the softness - comparing with OIS on and off - was obvious. On others it was detectable on enlargement, but certainly there. Having said all that, it seems to work wonders at very slow shutter speeds!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervyn_wilmington Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 <p>Just an update. Yesterday I received packaging from Fuji UK to send the lens to them. It has gone. I await the outcome.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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