AutoISO - Nikon D80

[michal_urban2]

<p>Hi,<br>

Im curious about AutoISO. I usually set it to 1/125th (my main lens goes to 70mm, thats 105mm EQ, so I generally want at least more than 1/100th) and I let the maximum ISO 1600.<br>

Now, this setting works great in Manual (i set say 1/250 and f/8 to avoid blur and have good depth of field) and let the AutoISO work the rest. Also, it works great in Aperture priority (I set f/8 to have good depth of field and let the AutoISO do its work (it increases ISO until 1600 and then it starts slowing shutter down).<br>

But unfortunately there is no way (that I know of) to set maximum aperture (minimum aperture number). I would like to set say minimal aperture to f/8 and maximum to f/16 and then, in Shutter priority, let AutoISO increase ISO until 1600 and THEN increase aperture (decrease aperture number). <br>

But I suppose its not possible. Or not possible with my Nikon D80?<br>

Thanks! :)</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>But I suppose its not possible</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Indeed, not possible. Not with the D80 and not with any other Nikon DSLR AFAIK.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Michael: You work how I work. I usually use manual mode with auto-ISO (though I'm still waiting to play with the D800's new ability to put the ISO button where I can reach it, which may change things some of the time).<br />

<br />

You can (at least, the D800 can - I've not checked the D80) shoot in aperture priority and set a minimum shutter speed, and auto-ISO will then change the ISO as needed to ensure the shutter speed is maintained; you can set a minimum and maximum ISO, after which I believe the shutter speed will change again. Sadly, you can't set a range and a priority order for what changes. I did suggest this to Nikon a few years ago; it gets a bit fiddly to set a complete range like this, but it would certainly be valuable to keep a lens in its optimal range (e.g. "don't shoot at f/2.8 if the lens doesn't get sharp until f/4, but don't go below f/11 to avoid diffraction"). Fingers crossed they get around to this addition eventually. I don't think Nikon offers Canon's "safety shift" thing (aperture priority that starts changing the aperture once it's run out of shutter options, and vice versa), which is kind of related.<br />

<br />

Do you actually want shutter priority, or do you just want a minimum shutter speed? If you're trying to capture a specific amount of motion blur, auto-ISO + aperture priority won't help; if you just want to avoid camera shake, it does. But personally, I just stay in manual mode, let the ISO bounce around as needed for sudden lighting changes, and adjust the rest as needed while keeping an eye on it.<br />

<br />

Sorry not to have better news!</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>Sorry Michal, but I'm not seeing any problem here. What you're basically asking is for Shutter Priority mode to act like Manual, in that you want control over both the aperture <em>and</em> shutter speed. What's wrong with just using Manual? Because by the time you've set all desired parameters in a menu, you could have switched to manual mode and set them directly several times over.</p>

<p>Besides, with the restricted range of aperture/shutter/ISO options you've stated above, the camera will only work automatically over a range of about 5 stops. Unless you move to a planet with a much brighter sun!</p>

 

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>What you're basically asking is for Shutter Priority mode to act like Manual, in that you want control over both the aperture <em>and</em> shutter speed. What's wrong with just using Manual? Because by the time you've set all desired parameters in a menu, you could have switched to manual mode and set them directly several times over.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>In some sense, yes. Many times, I wish I had the option to limit the aperture the camera can select in S mode when doing bird photography at fast shutter speeds and using Auto ISO. Most of the time I end up shooting wide open and would welcome the option to tell the camera to not do that but stay at one stop above and increase the ISO instead. But you do make a point - I need to investigate how my Nikon's behave in M mode when AutoISO is active - maybe it's not such a bad solution after all: http://www.robertotoole.com/2011/12/30/auto-iso-the-third-auto-mode/</p>

<p>The issue I have with selecting the minimum shutter speed when in A mode (and using Auto ISO) is that I have to go into the menu to change it - this parameter needs to be accessible without digging into a menu. And the same is true about a maximum aperture value - it may not be useful to many but it's easy enough to implement through firmware. Nothing wrong with having options, I suppose ;-)</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>Come on Dieter, is using manual mode such a big chore? Time was (not so long ago) when the only way to do things was to twiddle a knob on top of the camera and twist a ring on the lens. Now we've got one or two thumbwheels to do the same thing - not quite so ergonomic IMHO, but no great effort or time taken to do either. Especially since the camera can now take care of the exposure for you via Auto-ISO.</p>

<p>Your very valid point about not having to dig in menus would seem to run counter to wanting the ability to set up aperture limits. That would almost <em>have</em> to be done via a menu option. Or you could just turn the camera thumbwheel or lens ring as needed and achieve the same end.</p>

<p>Now spare a pitying thought for some Canon EOS owners whose cameras won't allow Auto-ISO to be used in manual mode. A tear is rolling down my cheek as I type this. Of sadness or laughter? I'll let you decide.</p>

[blumesan]

<blockquote>

<p> Also, it works great in Aperture priority (I set f/8 to have good depth of field and let the AutoISO do its work (<strong>it increases ISO until 1600 and then it starts slowing shutter down</strong>).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You may want to rethink this. I believe, in aperture priority mode shutter speed is adjusted (slowed) first, and ISO is increased only after the minimum shutter speed is reached.</p>

<p>I agree with those who suggest that shooting in manual mode provides the bests options to satisfy your needs. It takes some practice.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<blockquote>You may want to rethink this. I believe, in aperture priority mode shutter speed is adjusted (slowed) first, and ISO is increased only after the minimum shutter speed is reached.</blockquote>

 

<p>...but once you reach the highest selected ISO, the shutter speed starts getting slower again. I think. I'm rusty in this mode, mostly because of the point Joe makes - it's painful to make rapid settings to the shutter speed options in auto-ISO. This is why, in the D700 days, I requested a zoom-dependent shutter speed setting; after about a year of shooting mostly primes so that I didn't need to change the shutter speed based on motion blur (much), I gave up and switched to manual mode, relying on the British weather to keep me from shooting at minimum ISO much anyway even at the shutter speed I'd want - and manual lets me adjust the shutter speed quickly for focal length changes when I zoom.<br />

<br />

With a D800, aperture priority has a length-dependent mode (I'm not taking credit, but I'm grateful), and the increased dynamic range at low ISO means that staying at ISO 100 matters more. I'm guilty that I'm so used to shooting manual that I haven't got around to using it, since I'm usually outdoors in relatively unchanging light (and indoors I'm not at minimum ISO anyway). I should use it more, since in bright sunlight I'd have no objection to the shutter speed going higher, most of the time, and it would be better than overexposure. But then I also need to play with the ability to map the ISO button to where I can reach it (at last), and go "fully manual".</p>

[blumesan]

<blockquote>

<p>...but once you reach the highest selected ISO, the shutter speed starts getting slower again. I think.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Once the exposure requires going beyond the max ISO and minimum SS I suspect one of them will change, but I don't know which. Fortunately it's not a problem I have needed to solve.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>Come on Dieter, is using manual mode such a big chore? Time was (not so long ago) when the only way to do things was to twiddle a knob on top of the camera and twist a ring on the lens.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I know - I cut my teeth on purely manual cameras (FM, FM2) for some 20 years - the number of shots missed in that time "twiddling" those knobs and dials makes me not exactly covet fully manual mode anymore. But your post prompts me to give M with AutoISO a try - it might actually prove to be the best choice (after all, it's actually an "auto" mode and not a manual one). This would then be the second main "adjustment" I would make based on advice from the interwebs - the other was to give "back button" focus a try (which is now all I use).</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Now we've got one or two thumb wheels to do the same thing - not quite so ergonomic IMHO</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think it's actually better than the old dial and ring arrangement.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Your very valid point about not having to dig in menus would seem to run counter to wanting the ability to set up aperture limits. That would almost <em>have</em> to be done via a menu option.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not necessarily - for example, pressing the ISO button could have you select AUTO and then the two wheels could be used to set high ISO limit and minimum shutter speed (A mode) or maximum aperture (S mode). A lot of functionality currently buried in menus could be made more readily available - to the point were a menu wouldn't be needed at all. Having to dig through the menu for the AutoISO settings is one of the main things I would like to see Nikon change.</p>

[blumesan]

<blockquote>

<p> A lot of functionality currently buried in menus could be made more readily available - to the point were a menu wouldn't be needed at all. Having to dig through the menu for the AutoISO settings is one of the main things I would like to see Nikon change.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>For many of their DSLRs Nikon's menu system includes 4 separate "banks" for both Custom Settings and Shooting Menu; (an arrangement that has not garnered a lot of compliments.) Unfortunately the D80 does not provide multiple menu banks, however for those whose cameras have menu banks, one can use the 4 Shooting Menu banks to store 4 different permutations to their High ISO Limit and Minimum Shutter Speed. Switching menu banks can be done quickly with a minimum of button pushing.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<blockquote>Not necessarily - for example, pressing the ISO button could have you select AUTO and then the two wheels could be used to set high ISO limit and minimum shutter speed (A mode) or maximum aperture (S mode).</blockquote>

 

<p>Then how do you set ISO for normal use? Here, I believe we're trying to set a minimum and maximum on aperture (certainly I'd want to stop the camera using the "soft" apertures where possible, but also avoid the diffraction/"show all the dust spots" apertures), and presumably a minimum and maximum on shutter speed (stop camera shake/retain some subject movement), along with the ISO range. Currently, the ISO button on recent Nikons lets you control the ISO with one dial, and toggle auto on and off with the other dial. I believe this is the minimum ISO - though maximum might make more sense in auto mode; I think Nikon persist in thinking of auto-ISO as an exception rather than the default mode, in which case changing the minimum makes sense, but that's not how I use it. One could argue for a chording of two buttons to do the toggling and having both min and max ISO configurable on dials, but you wouldn't get all the configuration that we're considering. And I would certainly support a discussion about whether the ISO button is in a sensible place (but I'm in a good mood and I'm trying not to rant about that since it became possible to repurpose the video recording button for ISO in the latest D800 BIOS).<br />

<br />

Some of this you could actually make lens-dependent (and there are already per-lens settings on some Nikons, but mostly for AF adjustment), though it may also need to be focal-length dependent for a zoom (which, yes, should also apply to AF adjustment). Setting it all up would be a pain, but I can imagine that toggling between custom banks could let you be configured for a "freeze the subject", "get a bit of blur", "I'm taking a landscape and want some DoF", "hide the background" etc., in a configurable way. I can see some pros doing this.<br />

<br />

It's not quite the same thing as changing everything manually. One reason I like having auto-ISO enabled is that the camera can compensate faster than me if there's a sudden change in illumination (e.g. the subject bends down and their face becomes shadowed). Given time, I twiddle the manual exposure settings, but I'd rather have the camera do its best for "the perfect moment" when I'm surprised.</p>

[Matthew Currie]

<p>Only recently having graduated to aperture priority auto before jumping into digital, I guess I'm not quite as dedicated to instant action as some, but for the D3200, I've found the easiest way to keep things quick is to use aperture priority, check the shutter speed from time to time, and use manual ISO. One of the few very convenient buttons on the D3200 is the assignable function button on the front, which I leave at ISO. Once you're used to the steps, both this and the aperture can be changed without reading the screen, and brought either to the desired settings or close very quickly. </p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<blockquote>One of the few very convenient buttons on the D3200 is the assignable function button on the front, which I leave at ISO.</blockquote>

 

<p>!<br />

<br />

I complained to Nikon when I first got my D700 (at launch) that the ISO button was somewhere you couldn't reach, and that you couldn't map the programmable front buttons to ISO. With the D800, same problem (I complained again) - you can't map any of the programmable buttons to ISO, <i>except</i>, with the latest BIOS released last month, the video record button. Presumably the reasoning was the presence, albeit in an awkward place, of the dedicated ISO button on those cameras.<br />

<br />

I don't think I'd realised that the D3200 could always do this. I must remember that I'm in a good mood with Nikon's engineers for finally fixing the D800, rather than being cross with them that it's taken so long to add functionality that's been on the cheap cameras the whole time... (I actually figured that the D5x00 series are probably better, since the LCD hinge forces the buttons to be moved to where I can actually reach them right-handed, but I hadn't grasped that the D3x00 series could do this. So much for the improved handling of the high-end bodies. Though I seem to recall that combining exposure compensation with auto-ISO, especially in manual mode, is a bit tricky on the low-end bodies. I may have imagined that.)<br />

<br />

Just to be clear... no, I'm not offering to swap my D800.</p>

[Matthew Currie]

<p>I would not suggest swapping out the D800 anyway, because, in case it was not obvious, the 3200, though it does have that assignable ISO button, does not have a dedicated ISO button, and in A,S,P and M modes auto ISO is not available at all. This does not bother me, as I am used to film cameras, and find the option of changing ISO at all rather a novelty, and that control is quite handily placed, but "fixing" is relative, I'm sure. </p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Ah - I knew about the lack of ISO button (not that the dedicated one I can't reach on my D700 and D800 is much better - and I've checked that the D3 and D4 series don't help either...) I was under the impression - and I didn't experiment when I last held a D3200, but I've had a quick look at the manual - that auto-ISO may only be controllable in the S,P,A,M modes. Or may be manual ISO only applies in those modes - it's hard to tell from the user guide without trying it. My bigger problem would be that the exposure compensation button is also used for setting aperture in manual mode, meaning that the only way to adjust exposure compensation (and thus affect ISO indirectly, in manual + auto-ISO mode) is via the info button and the menu.<br />

<br />

Anyway, interesting to know that direct ISO access is possible. I'm now going to download a D80 manual and see whether this diversion actually helps the originator of this thread!</p>

[Matthew Currie]

<p>Andrew, as far as compensation, it's indeed a handicap that the 3200 has only the one wheel, but since the whole point of manual operation is to override the meter, one can just disobey it. If you really need the meter to be compensated, you can switch to aperture priority, set the compensation, then go back to manual. Compensation remains until it's changed again.</p>

<p>Auto-ISO is grayed out in S,P,A and M modes and cannot be set. All ISO is grayed out in the two fully automated modes. Auto ISO can only be selected via menu and when in one of the 6 modes that support it. </p>

[Matthew Currie]

<p>I tried to edit the above message and forgot to hit the "confirm" button, I guess.</p>

<p>The information is not quite right, because, as others note, this is complicated.</p>

<p>In the D3200 there are actually two semi-separate "auto" functions that work differently. In P,S,A, and M modes, if you select "auto" in the menu, the camera will override your ISO settings when shutter speed goes too low. Once you have done this in the menu, the ISO selector does not include "auto" and you cannot get out of it except through the menu. You can override using the front ISO selector only in the direction of a higher ISO. The menu includes options for determining the highest ISO it will select, and the shutter speed at which it will do so. When the camera overrides your chosen ISO the speed appears in red in the data display. </p>

<p>If you select "auto" off in the menu, you get plain manual ISO selection in P,S,A and M modes.</p>

<p>In the six other special modes (not the point and shoot modes where no control exists), you cannot turn "auto" function off at all in the menu. However, "auto" now appears as one of the ISO choices when using the ISO selector, and if you select a specific ISO speed, it will override the auto function. That setting carries over to all the modes involved, and persists until reset. </p>

<p>Adding to the confusion, when you choose a manual ISO in one of the default auto modes, it will also reset the P,S, A and M ISO to that choice. However, whenever you change ISO in P,S,A or M mode, it resets the other six to "auto." </p>

<p>The manual does not do a very good job of explaining this. </p>