D800E firmware update 1.10

Andrew Garrard · May 16, 2014

Hi Mike. Oh dear. I'm sorry if I've made matters worse - especially since Ilkka's interpretation may well be correct. (I've still not had the chance to do any testing.)

Firstly:

<blockquote>(5) AF-C Mode. **AF Priority to FOCUS**. Acquire focus by press & release of AF-ON button. The behavior is exactly the same as in (1) above. (This surprised me since all references to trap focus emphasize that the camera be in AF-S mode).</blockquote>

It's now been a while since I tried trap focus (obviously, since I've mostly been using my D800). In terms of shutter release, I would expect the same behaviour. However, this brings me partly in line with Ilkka's concerns about whether the focus is really locked - in my case, my concern is about whether it's locked on the right thing. Consider a birding situation: I might lock focus on a bird, recompose to the direction in which I expect it to take off, and then hold down the shutter release in the (maybe optimistic) expectation that I'd get a shot as the bird passed through the focus point. With AF-S, I can lock statically on the bird, know the lens is in the right place, and recompose. With AF-C, the lens will continue moving until I let go of AF-ON - fine if it's staying locked in the right place, less good if the camera has taken this moment to refocus on the background and started to move the lens. It may not have moved far enough for me to notice in the finder, but the final shot may be soft. Some lenses can refocus fast - I have several wildly out of focus shots from my 200 f/2 that were in perfect focus when my finger started moving on the shutter. I can't say this is a major distinction, but it is a distinction.

<blockquote>First, I can see no reason why, in AF-S Mode, one would choose release priority. Of course it would allow you to focus with a press and release of the AF-ON button and then recompose and shoot; while when in focus priority the shutter may fail to release. However a much simpler solution (to focus--lock focus--reframe and shoot) is to keep the AF-ON button depressed while recomposing.</blockquote>

Using AF-On, with the arguable exception of how easy it might be to keep a thumb on the AF-On button while simultaneously doing whatever else you might want to do to the camera (exposure changes, etc.), I agree that AF-S + release is a little odd. Using AF activated by the shutter, it makes much more sense - it's the difference between "take a photo now if I mush the shutter button" and "try to make sure it's in focus first", still allowing focus-and-recompose.

Honestly, I spend most of my time in AF-C anyway, since most subjects are likely enough to move a bit along the optical axis that I'd rather be tracking them, and focus-and-recompose on a 36MP camera is a lesson in watching the focal plane move as you rotate. But it's nice to have a bit of flexibility here.

It strikes me that I've seen some quite detailed descriptions of Nikon's AF system. It would probably help if I could remember any of them... but good examples of when to use each combination would also be handy.

blumesan · May 16, 2014

Hi Andrew. Always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you.

I must confess that, after much effort, I still do not understand Ilkka's complaint about the D700 and updated D800. So it goes without saying that I fail to comprehend how the D800 (original FW) solved the problem. Thus your remark to the effect that Ilkka may be right, caused me more confusion.

"However, this brings me partly in line with Ilkka's concerns about whether the focus is really locked - in my case, my concern is about whether it's locked on the right thing. Consider a birding situation: I might lock focus on a bird, recompose to the direction in which I expect it to take off, and then hold down the shutter release in the (maybe optimistic) expectation that I'd get a shot as the bird passed through the focus point. With AF-S, I can lock statically on the bird, know the lens is in the right place, and recompose. With AF-C, the lens will continue moving until I let go of AF-ON - fine if it's staying locked in the right place, less good if the camera has taken this moment to refocus on the background and started to move the lens. It may not have moved far enough for me to notice in the finder, but the final shot may be soft. Some lenses can refocus fast - I have several wildly out of focus shots from my 200 f/2 that were in perfect focus when my finger started moving on the shutter. I can't say this is a major distinction, but it is a distinction."

</blockquote>

Yes, with AF-S focus will lock on the bird the instant it is achieved. The VF indicator will light to confirm focus has been achieved. Focus will remain locked even if your finger may linger on the AF-ON button.

In contrast, when in AF-C mode (both in release and focus priority), autofocus will remain engaged as long as the AF-ON button is depressed. So the solution is to release the AF-ON button the instant the VF indicator shows focus has been achieved and before you recompose. Starting to recompose, even a brief instant before releasing the AF-ON button will indeed result in out of focus shots and the problem is magnified with lenses that are fast to refocus. The result is that focus remains on whatever was in the background when the button was released. Of course in focus priority mode, if nothing was in focus after recomposing, the shutter simply refuses to fire.

Bottom line, from my experience and reading, I find no evidence to suggest that cessation of autofocus is not immediate upon release of the AF-ON button. But quite aside, I thought Ilkka's complaint somehow related to autofocus terminating prematurely.

"Using AF-On, with the arguable exception of how easy it might be to keep a thumb on the AF-On button while simultaneously doing whatever else you might want to do to the camera (exposure changes, etc.),

I agree that AF-S + release is a little odd. Using AF activated by the shutter, it makes much more sense - it's the difference between "take a photo now if I mush the shutter button" and "try to make sure it's in focus first", still allowing focus-and-recompose.

. .....and focus-and-recompose on a 36MP camera is a lesson in watching the focal plane move as you rotate. "

</blockquote>

I find it very easy to hold AF-ON while pressing the shutter button. Exposure, Iso, etc. are set automatically well before I am ready to focus and shoot.

As for moving AF activation to the shutter button, it depends on what you want to do. In release priority it means "try to achieve focus first but fire the shutter even if it fails to achieve focus". In focus priority it means "don't release the shutter until focus has been achieved". In order to focus--lock focus--recompose and shoot, one has to keep the shutter release half pressed; something I find very awkward.

On any camera focus--and--recompose always entails the risk that the selected focus point will no longer be in focus. I know of no way that any camera setting can preempt this risk.

In my travels I have encountered very few detailed descriptions of the Nikon AF system concerning the present issues (and practically none published by Nikon itself) . Consequently what I have learned has been mostly by trial and error.

Best regards,

Mike

joel_b.1 · May 17, 2014

It never fails -- come to these forums to ask a question, and find it already asked and thoroughly answered.

For the record, in case any future visitors would like to see it, this is the official description from Nikon regarding the new firmware's updates to the camera's behavior in AF-S mode:

<ul>

<li>When AF-ON only was selected for Custom Setting a4 (AF activation) and the AF-ON button was pressed to initiate autofocus during viewfinder photography, focus remained locked even after the user took their finger off the button, and the shutter could be released at any time. However, specifications have been modified so that the shutter cannot be released under the following conditions if the camera fails to focus.</li>

<ul>

<li>Autofocus mode is set to AF-S (single-servo AF)</li>

<li>AF-area mode is set to Single-point AF</li>

<li>Custom Setting a2 (AF-S priority selection) is set to Focus</li>

</ul>

</blockquote>

I am in AF-C 99% of the time, so this change doesn't affect me much. I was curious, though, about what problem this revision was intended to solve when in AF-S, and the robust discussion here has proved very illuminating. My thanks to all.

alastair_anderson · May 17, 2014

I'm delighted to note that we can now assign ISO sensitivity to the movie record button.

Landrum Kelly · May 18, 2014

Lack of Trap focus on the D800/E:

I see that this was discussed almost two years ago as being either Nikon's error or a deliberate decision. Andrew, I confess that I have never used trap focus, but now you have piqued my curiosity:

Since I rarely take action shots, I suppose that my ignorance has not caused me to miss too many shots, but this is worth looking at, I think. Having been a Canon shooter from 1982-2012, there is a lot about Nikon I do not understand--but I guess I never understood this when I was with Canon, either. [sigh]

--Lannie

blumesan · May 18, 2014

I am in AF-C 99% of the time, so this change doesn't affect me much. I was curious, though, about what problem this revision was intended to solve when in AF-S, and the robust discussion here has proved very illuminating. My thanks to all.

</blockquote>

With the D800 (original FW) there was absolutely no reason to be in AF-S mode. It provided no functionality that was not easily available in AF-S mode. (This is the reason why some of us considered this change from earlier cameras to be a bug or coding error, rather than a "new feature".) With the updated FW one needs to switch to AF-S mode only to enable trap focus. I, for one, am very happy with the change.

blumesan · May 19, 2014

Late edit:

It provided no functionality that was not easily available in AF-C mode

Andrew Garrard · May 19, 2014

Mike: The distinction, however dubious, that I make is that in AF-S, the focus will stop when the lens is in the right place - be that perfect focus or - if Ilkka is correct about release priority and I'm understanding him correctly - nearly perfect focus.

In AF-C, the focus will move for as long as the AF-On button is held down. My argument against this was that the camera can decide to focus on something other than the main subject (if something moves in front of the focus sensor, or if the subject moves slightly out of the way) at any point. I'd typically notice this, if the focus point moves significantly. However, with AF-C, the focus can have just started to move to a different distance at the exact moment I let go of the AF-On button - and the loss of sharpness may be small enough that I wouldn't notice until I took the shot. Some of my lenses move fast. I do mostly use AF-C, but not when I'm worried about the AF system hitting the wrong target.

But with this, I was addressing your argument that there was no benefit to AF-S in release priority, not Ilkka's concern about whether the autofocus aborts. Apologies for the confusion. I think Ilkka is worried about autofocus stopping early (because it's "close enough"), not failing to stop when you release the AF-On button.

Joel: I'm glad I haven't just confused someone. :-)

Lannie: Enjoy the feature! Canon used to offer it in their high-end bodies (until 2008 I was a Canon shooter, and lusted after this, among other "high end features" such as a spot meter) - it's "personal function 16" on the 1Ds2, but I believe it went missing on the 1Ds3. I remember grumbling about it at the time, and it making me buy a D700.

Alastair: Okay, now I'm going to update my firmware. Thank you - that news might completely change how I use my camera, at least some of the time, and will make my week. Nikon: I take back much of my grumbling of the past few years. That's the single biggest usability fix they could have done for me! Though it's a shame the AF mode moved to where I can't reach it with the D800 generation. (I know, some people are never happy.)

I do change exposure settings while tracking a subject, so I don't claim that AF-On is always as convenient for me as Mike finds it (my thumb may be occupied, though I'm mastering the "tip of thumb on AF-On, rotate the last joint to move the rear dial" approach). For that reason, and I may be in a minority here, I do sometimes use the AF activation by shutter - for which purposes, there is absolutely a reason to be in AF-S mode. Arguably, having trap focus work irrespective of A2 would have been nice (there's nothing special about AF-On), but I'll take what I can get. I can see why some might want a distinction between "take a photo now" and "make sure you've hit focus first", and therefore want A2 to be relevant.

blumesan · May 19, 2014

Andrew, thanks for your reply.

"Mike: The distinction, however dubious, that I make is that in AF-S, the focus will stop when the lens is in the right place - be that perfect focus or - if Ilkka is correct about release priority and I'm understanding him correctly - nearly perfect focus."

</blockquote>

I am struggling with this and I feel a bit stupid. "...focus will stop when the lens is in the right place..." ??

I assume we are talking about using press and release of AF-ON to achieve focus. If the camera is operating as advertised, and if you keep the button pressed long enough for focus to be achieved (probably one second or less with a good AFS lens) perfect focus should be achieved. Whether it is or not, neither experience nor logic suggests that perfect focus is more likely depending on whether one is in release priority or focus priority mode. Do you interpret Ilkka's post to suggest otherwise?

I had the impression that Ilkka preferred the original FW in the D800. In that configuration, if one acquired focus by a press and release of the AF-ON button, the shutter would fire without delay whether or not the initial focus was perfect, near perfect, or completely out of focus; and neither the choice of AF-S or AF-C, nor the choice of Focus or Release Priority mattered one whit. As I mentioned previously, I was not (am not) really sure what problem Ilkka encountered, or under what conditions.

Of course, when one transfers autofocus to the shutter button, in AF-S, focus priority mode the camera will enforce autofocus before releasing the shutter, but that defeats the purpose of focus and recompose. If you want to focus and recompose you must maintain a half-press of the shutter to keep focus locked, and this approach gives no additional assurance that initial focus was perfect.

"In AF-C, the focus will move for as long as the AF-On button is held down. My argument against this was that the camera can decide to focus on something other than the main subject (if something moves in front of the focus sensor, or if the subject moves slightly out of the way) at any point. I'd typically notice this, if the focus point moves significantly. However, with AF-C, the focus can have just started to move to a different distance at the exact moment I let go of the AF-On button - and the loss of sharpness may be small enough that I wouldn't notice until I took the shot. Some of my lenses move fast. I do mostly use AF-C, but not when I'm worried about the AF system hitting the wrong target.

But with this, I was addressing your argument that there was no benefit to AF-S in release priority, not Ilkka's concern about whether the autofocus aborts. Apologies for the confusion. I think Ilkka is worried about autofocus stopping early (because it's "close enough"), not failing to stop when you release the AF-On button."

</blockquote>

It seems to me that there is a simple solution to this problem (in today's jargon, "there is an App for that"). Custom Menu Option: Focus Tracking with Lock On. Setting this to <Long> will delay refocusing in the circumstances you describe.

Of course if you want additional insurance that no refocusing can occur, you can always switch to AF-S mode; I certainly have no quarrel with that choice (but switching is a real pita with the D800). To focus and recompose (with the D700 or updated D800) you must keep the AF-ON button pressed while recomposing. With the D800 (orig. FW) you could release the button before recomposing.

Regards, Mike.

Andrew Garrard · May 20, 2014

Hi Mike.

<blockquote>I assume we are talking about using press and release of AF-ON to achieve focus. If the camera is operating as advertised, and if you keep the button pressed long enough for focus to be achieved (probably one second or less with a good AFS lens) perfect focus should be achieved. Whether it is or not, neither experience nor logic suggests that perfect focus is more likely depending on whether one is in release priority or focus priority mode. Do you interpret Ilkka's post to suggest otherwise?</blockquote>

I do interpret Ilkka's post to suggest that he believes "release priority" causes the autofocus process to abort when an approximate focus is achieved - that it does make a difference to the probability of perfect focus being achieved. Of course, I could be misinterpreting him. [ilkka - are you still reading?] And I've not had the chance to do any personal verification of the camera behaviour, but my own interpretation of the camera behaviour has always mirrored yours. That said, I spend enough time fighting the D800's AF system (I really need to recalibrate all my lenses) that I may be masking any issues here.

<blockquote>if one acquired focus by a press and release of the AF-ON button, the shutter would fire without delay whether or not the initial focus was perfect, near perfect, or completely out of focus; and neither the choice of AF-S or AF-C, nor the choice of Focus or Release Priority mattered one whit.</blockquote>

Well, I believe AF-S vs AF-C would make a difference to what happened before you let go of AF-On. But I agree that what happened afterwards was unaffected by the choice.

<blockquote>Of course, when one transfers autofocus to the shutter button, in AF-S, focus priority mode the camera will enforce autofocus before releasing the shutter, but that defeats the purpose of focus and recompose. If you want to focus and recompose you must maintain a half-press of the shutter to keep focus locked, and this approach gives no additional assurance that initial focus was perfect.</blockquote>

Assuming that our interpretation of the focus behaviour is correct, I agree with you.

<blockquote>It seems to me that there is a simple solution to this problem (in today's jargon, "there is an App for that"). Custom Menu Option: Focus Tracking with Lock On. Setting this to <Long> will delay refocusing in the circumstances you describe.</blockquote>

That's true. But it takes long enough to play with this setting that I'd prefer to leave it whatever mode is best for tracking a subject. For example, when birding, I could use AF-S to capture the bird taking off, then switch to AF-C with the tracking mode I want to capture the bird in flight. (Yes, this is a little optimistic about how long the change takes, but it's possible, and faster is better.)

<blockquote>Of course if you want additional insurance that no refocusing can occur, you can always switch to AF-S mode; I certainly have no quarrel with that choice (but switching is a real pita with the D800)</blockquote>

And every other Nikon. The AF mode switch on the front is just a pain when used with a big lens, because my hands aren't anywhere near it. I understand the mechanical movement of the focus screwdriver, but putting the control button there is not good ergonomics unless you're using a very small lens, or a tripod. Still not having had a chance to update my BIOS, I'm assuming the button for AF mode can't be mapped to the video record button as well? (I vaguely understand Nikon's reluctance to allow the other buttons to map to ISO, because both the front and rear dials have an effect on ISO setting and moving both dials while holding a front or rear button is a little fiddly - though I'd be prepared to try, especially with the Fn button; the same argument holds for AF mode, but the top-mounted video record button avoids this issue.) But at least it's not a trip into the menus.

<blockquote>To focus and recompose (with the D700 or updated D800) you must keep the AF-ON button pressed while recomposing. With the D800 (orig. FW) you could release the button before recomposing.</blockquote>

Now I'm confused. (Okay, now I'm knowingly confused.) I've lost track of which situation you're describing.

blumesan · May 25, 2014

Hi Andrew,

I do interpret Ilkka's post to suggest that he believes "release priority" causes the autofocus process to abort when an approximate focus is achieved - that it does make a difference to the probability of perfect focus being achieved. Of course, I could be misinterpreting him. [ilkka - are you still reading?]

</blockquote>

I am really sorry that Ilkka has abandoned this thread and left us to speculate. I have experimented at some length (D800 with original FW).

Method: Press & release of AF-ON to achieve focus; then recompose. Examine focus of initially focused subject; compare focus vs. release priority in both AF-S and AF-C modes.

I find that, with reasonable care that recomposing does not change the distance to the initial subject, there is no systematic difference in focus under these conditions.

Of course one cannot perform exactly this same test with the D700. See below.

---

"If one acquired focus by a press and release of the AF-ON button, the shutter would fire without delay whether or not the initial focus was perfect, near perfect, or completely out of focus; and neither the choice of AF-S or AF-C, nor the choice of Focus or Release Priority mattered one whit."

Well, I believe AF-S vs AF-C would make a difference to what happened before you let go of AF-On. But I agree that what happened afterwards was unaffected by the choice.

</blockquote>

Indeed, in AF-C mode the focus does not lock until you release the AF-ON button. As long as the button remains pressed autofocus remains active. And it is under these conditions that one sees a difference between Focus and Release Priority. With Release Priority the shutter will fire without delay whether or not perfect focus had been achieved. It is not a case of autofocus being prematurely terminated; it is a case of the shutter firing too soon. With Focus Priority the shutter release will be delayed (albeit briefly with a fast autofocus lens) until "perfect" focus is achieved. Could this be the distinction that concerned Ilkka?

---

"To focus and recompose (with the D700 or updated D800) you must keep the AF-ON button pressed while recomposing. With the D800 (orig. FW) you could release the button before recomposing."

Now I'm confused. (Okay, now I'm knowingly confused.) I've lost track of which situation you're describing.

</blockquote>

Yes, it does get confusing when trying to describe the behavior of two different cameras (FW implementations). I was trying to emphasize the difference between the D700 and the D800 with original FW, when attempting to focus, lock focus and recompose.

With the D700 in AF-S mode (default = Focus Priority) you must keep the AF-ON button pressed while recomposing and until the shutter is released. Otherwise the camera reverts to the trap focus function and the shutter may fail to release. Alternatively one can switch to Release Priority OR switch to AF-C mode (default = Release Priority), where a simple press and release of the AF-ON button allows focus and recompose.

Regards.

Andrew Garrard · June 3, 2014

Belatedly (sorry, I've been away...)

1) Thanks for experimenting! (I've still not had the chance to upgrade my D800, but since I've noticed it's due for a sensor clean, I may just ask Nikon to do it.)

2) If that's what's concerning Ilkka, I don't understand how the focus priority situation differed from release priority on the old D800 BIOS - it still doesn't feel like useful behaviour. Unless I misunderstand again!

3) Wait, with the D700 (and presumably the D800 with new firmware) you can hold AF-On in AF-S and effectively disable trap focus even when in focus priority? That actually makes perfect sense - but also means there's even less argument for the older D800 behaviour!

I'll have to get an update (whether myself or via Nikon) and do some experimenting...

blumesan · June 3, 2014

Andrew,

Thanks for the reply. Pity, but I think we have lost Ilkka.

3) Wait, with the D700 (and presumably the D800 with new firmware) you can hold AF-On in AF-S and effectively disable trap focus even when in focus priority? That actually makes perfect sense - but also means there's even less argument for the older D800 behavior!

</blockquote>

Yes, this was the recommended method for "focus-lock focus-recompose" when in AF-S mode.

It really does put the lie to Nikons assertion that the change in the D800 was intentional and a "feature". I guess they postponed the firmware update so long to allow us to forget their original claim/excuse.

Andrew Garrard · June 4, 2014

Oh, I think claiming that the delay was for PR might be a bit of a conspiracy theory, even by my standards. I think they probably just didn't consider it to be important until they were messing with this code anyway (which I guess they may have been for the D4s) and were releasing a software update anyway (there were some bug fixes, and support for >128GB CF cards and the UT-1 probably needed it). But I can completely understand how a programmer ended up implementing the wrong logic (it's not just a typo). They're probably looking at the same code for future cameras as well - I could believe they just didn't get around to it while updating the D3x00 and D5x00 generations have had priority.

Fixing the trap focus and allowing access to an "ISO button" with the right hand are by far the highest priority fixes that I wanted for the D800. I still have a plenty-long list should I get the chance to hack the BIOS myself - the chances of which can be deduced by the way I've not managed it yet and the way I've not even found time to update the BIOS with the 1.10 firmware - but given the amount of bashing Nikon gets on this forum (including from me, especially about the Df), I want to give them credit for actually doing the right thing. I'd honestly assumed that they were going to use the "if you want a fixed BIOS, buy a new camera" approach, so I'm pleasantly surprised that they went for the solution that benefits loyal customers!

blumesan · June 4, 2014

Hi Andrew..

I am certainly not suggesting that the long delay in updating the bios was part of a PR conspiracy. However it does seem that, if PR were high on Nikon's agenda, the proper response to the many complaints which followed the D800 release would have been forthcoming a bit sooner. And surely the early response, firmly denying that the changes were a bug or code error, has left a bit of egg on their face. At any rate I am glad Nikon has retreated from that position and have now made the update available.

I am still a bit pissed off with Nikon for their total failure to support the software for their (very high priced) line of scanners when changes to the O/S rendered the hardware totally inoperative. Turned out that a very simple hack (first revealed here in pnet: http://www.photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00Ryck) solved the problem. This was a fix that Nikon could have provided with little or no effort.

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D800E firmware update 1.10

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