Buy from KEH or maybe a camera show?

[todd_phillips3]

I am a DSLR (and some 35mm SLR) shooter ready to begin dabbling in MF and have distilled my plan down to getting

into it as inexpensively as possible to start and then expanding later. This has me thinking at the moment that a YashicaMat

TLR is probably the best option and presumably I will get one from KEH.

 

The only thing that has me holding out now (aside from it being the holidays and having five kids to play Santa

for) is the question mark about a local camera show here in Southern California that I recently found out about

(while perusing craigslist)... http://bargaincamerashows.com/

 

The next show I can make is on Dec22 so I figure I'll wait until after that to pull the trigger either way. I am

of course interested to get my hands on some of these MF kits, assuming there will be some there... It's just

that having never gone to one of these shows I am wondering if it's a place to expect that I might stumble across

a deal that's too good to refuse.. Or that might not be the case at all and everything will be overpriced...

Anybody have experience with these kind of markets?

[dcstep]

<p>There will be individuals and dealers at the show and the range of reliability will range from great to non-existent. KEH is a know entity that strives for full customer satisfaction. The more that you personally know, the more attractive that the local show might be. You might just go to educate yourself further, but only buy if your absolutely sure of the quality of the piece and the sellers support of your purchase.</p>

[Aoresteen]

<p>In the last 60 days I have spent $3K on gear from KEH. Started shopping with them in the 80's.</p>

<p>I've never had any issues with them.</p>

[todd_phillips3]

Cool. Sounds like KEH will be the way to go and the camera show will just be for education.. I would be able to spot glass and oily blade and fungus issues but that's about it.. I still wonder if maybe I'll get lucky though.. A good enough bargain on something and maybe an additional CLA could be the way to go?

 

The one issue I have with KEH (from the looks of it as I've not purchased from them before) is that the items for sale don't offer much info and it doesn't seem possible to contact anybody with questions...

[m._howard_edwards]

<p>I suspect KEH will have a presence at the show since they have recently begun to tour. They will be able to answer any questions you may have. My experience at shows has been good, as many of the exhibitors are regulars who ride the local show circuit. You can go back to to the sellers if you experience any problem with your purchase. I learned that there are not a lot of serious bargains, so negotiation skills are an asset.</p>

[todd_phillips3]

Aha! Then it can really be an educational trip for me because the only negotiating skill I have is negotiation avoidance. :o) Thanks for the heads up.

[c_watson1]

<p>Camera shows are often simply fun to attend and offer a chance to see and explore gear of all kinds. Bargains? Not usually. My experience at large semi-annnual shows around Toronto taught me to expect sellers who were generally unaware of eBay prices or the market value of what they often wildly overprice. Still, shows are great for hard-to-find accessories and odd bits you might need. As a source for cameras and lenses, I have more faith in eBay and even more in KEH.</p>

<p>With respect, why an old TLR? With repair resources thinning and service work getting no cheaper, I've been happy buying the newest MF gear I could afford. The oft-recommended CLA cure-all doesn't always bring relics back to life.</p>

<p>Perhaps it's best now to chill, enjoy the holidays, and start some serious research on formats and how they'll suit the type of shooting that interests you. Go to the show but do so as a voyage of discovery.</p>

<p>Don't be surprised to see a KEH buyer at the show. They're at every major show in my area.</p>

[john_photos]

<p>KEH is a good bet. Not to thrilled with their rating system though. If you look very carefully bargain is often bargain when it comes to glass. They clean stuff up cosmetically before selling however things like fungus and rubbing marks are often present if you look very very carefully. However, their return policy is fair and one can feel safe purchasing from them.<br>

Camera shows are great but I agree there are few bargains. The sellers at these shows are acutely aware of ebay prices. Obviously. </p>

[todd_phillips3]

@ C Watson - An old TLR because I am being lured by the generally positive reviews I've read about them, with their usability, durability, functionality, simplicity, and the (at least theoretically and most significantly for me) relatively low cost of this as a first MF camera. My thought is that I can get in for a couple hundred-ish and initially be spending what I didn't spend on gear on more film and processing. I've been slowly researching this stuff for months and Bronica SQA was the plan for quite a while and is still in second place, but getting that whole kit together is enough more of an investment that I keep gravitating back to the old TLR route, thinking I should start with it and then sometime next year probably add the SQA setup. (Kiev88cm is also in strong contention with SQA, despite all the possible pitfalls and the loud thwacking shutters.. I just love results I see with Zeiss glass. It is often associated with the images that wow me the most. But going Kiev takes me away from being able to shop KEH, which is another reason why I might go with old TLR to start, so I can take my time piecing together the Hasselbladski setup..Bronica is close enough though so I may spare myself the Bladski headache.. Rolleiflex looks like a real nice route to me too... Pentax too since I am a Pentax D/SLR shooter after all... so many choices... I might just need eventually buy them all lol)

[sfcole]

<p>I just received a bargain-grade Zeiss Sonnar 150 for a Hasselblad from KEH. The glass is perfect (just some cosmetic wear on the barrel).</p>

<p>I'd buy from a camera show IF:<br>

1. the item can be verified somehow that it is working correctly<br>

2. the price is irresistable<br>

3. The dealer has has a written warranty and a physical location/established business.</p>

[johncrosley]

<p>I once attended as a seller a camera show. I had some wonderfully beat-up lenses, but they were beaten up cosmetically only and were otherwise 'brand new' and their beaten up appearance had resulted from their being used as lenses on two cameras bouncing around my neck, and bouncing around beating against the other camera and each other.</p>

<p>In no way was the focusing or glass impaired, and the photos were first classs, but I anticipated a problem selling these particular lenses which were duplicates or triplicates.</p>

<p>I found that with a little enthusiastic demonstration and some really honest talk with potential buyers, allowing them to handle the equipment and take photos with them, then telling them NOT to buy a cosmetically impaired lens if she were giving it as a gift to grandma or a husband, but for her/his own shooting, then there might be a great bargain to be had, and otherwise to steer clear. I was completely honest and apparently infectious.</p>

<p>I had never sold at or even attended a camera show before. My lenses actually sold for 'top dollar' despite their impaired cosmetic condition, and I learned a lesson that people who sell by web have found.</p>

<p>For instance, on B&H you may find a camera for a wonderful price as a refurb, but the identical camera (non refurb) at the highest list price. You'd think that most people would shop around and not buy the 'list price' camera and wait for a bargain, but I think that's not always the case.</p>

<p>When a rich, highly-paid executive of a firm says to an assistant 'I'm damaged my camera, get me a replacement' and it's a high up executive, the person who is in charge of the replacement is not always going to take a chance on a 'refurb' or spend time dickering when there's other business to be done. That person, not caring too much other than to follow instructions, is going to dial up a replacement and buy it, and if B&H has two ads, one in one column for a new camera for $900 and another for the exact same new camera in another web page or column for $1,200 (and they do this regularly), it's possible that the person in charge of buying the replacement may click on the $1,200 camera first, purchase that one, not understand there's $300 to be saved thus giving an extra $300 profit to B&H. </p>

<p>Famously some companies that initially were reluctant to get into Internet auction type sales were persuaded to do so when they realized that up to 10% or more of sales were for MORE than the general fair market price of the item, internet price or brick and mortar store price, and that's room for a lot of profit and price cutting on other items.<br>

I found when personally demonstrating my lenses that a little serious and honest salesmanship increased sales prices dramatically. I urged the potential buyers to take photos, demonstrated how wonderfully VR systems worked andoften the sales I made were to those (at the camera show) who needed instruction more than they needed to pay the smallest price. They were happy because they didn't doubt that that the particular lens being sold was capable of taking great photos, had seen it in use and had even used it enough to get a feel for its use under a 'crowd situation'.<br>

I was never involved in selling anything before in my life, but others in the business there were carefully watching me and exclaiming (in quiet voice to me) that I was getting better than top dollar for my lenses when they were barely selling anything to an unenthusiastic crowd. \<br>

The KEH buyer was there, several years ago.</p>

<p>In retrospect, I think my few buyers paid as much for the instruction and the certainty I gave them on what they were buying (and what they were NOT buying -- e.g. pristine cosmetic lenses were not what I was selling though they were all less than a year old). I projected an air of absolute command of what each lens could do and not do, then showed them how to do just that (and watched them do that), and soon the lenses were gone. </p>

<p>I note that there obviously were LOTS of dealers who arrived the night before the camera/lens event who set up their merchandise (and a guard sat there overnight watching the displays -- a local policeman I recall working on his own time), and everyone felt comfortable setting up their sometimes hundreds of goods the night before then arriving the next morning to spend the following day selling only.</p>

<p>There obviously was a camera/lens trade show circuit, as many of these folks knew each other -- and I was one of the 'casual sellers' with part of a table and the 'odd man out'.</p>

<p>All the people participating seemed to know value down cold, and I don't think it would have been easy to get a bargain from them for anything, UNLESS one needed a specific piece of gear for a collection or to make something else work, and they had the only one, in which case (if you didn't tell them that), you might get a very decent price.</p>

<p>I've bought from KEH, and note particularly that if an item is marked LN-, if it likely to be a refurb, and usually is so marked, and if not marked, call and ask. I've only seen one refurb in hundreds that showed any signs of wear, and the retailer returned it as unsalable. (lens that had been rolling on floor or trunk of salesman's car apparently for a long time, probably, until its barrel was brassed, to be sold as 'refurb' because it worked perfectly, but cosmetically was far less than bargain. After a few months trying to sell it, the retailer (Samy's of LA) sent it back to Nikon.<br>

I really have bought refurb after refurb and even if I used a magnifying glass and the legendary 'fine tooth comb', I doubt if I'd ever be able to find evidence the item was previously sold or used, unless a camera had a few clicks on it. I understand that any 'return' will end up as a 'refurb' but still firmly believe that Nikon at least picks 'refurbs from their assembly lines, or assembles them from old parts when it's clear the parts are not going to be sold for repairs and otherwise would be sitting in a warehouse forever.</p>

<p>Probably they make their employees do such duty when they have nothing else to do, is my guess, or a factory is shut down, or a line is shut down, and the employes (I speculate) sometimes are set to assembling old cameras from parts that never would be used for repair. Again, thus is in addition to picking cameras off the line and giving them a short warranty which doesn't have to be kept 'on the books' more than the 90-day refurb warranty period, which makes the accountants happy.</p>

<p>(I never checked the clicks on a purchased refurb camera, as I can put 250-1,500 clicks on a camera in a normal day, so a hundred or so clicks on a camera shipped to me means almost nothing.)</p>

<p>john</p>

<p>John (Crosley)</p>

<p> </p>

[c_watson1]

<p><em>An old TLR because I am being lured by the generally positive reviews I've read about them, with their usability, durability, functionality, simplicity, and the (at least theoretically and most significantly for me) relatively low cost of this as a first MF camera. My thought is that I can get in for a couple hundred-ish and initially be spending what I didn't spend on gear on more film and processing.</em><br>

<br /> They're all getting very long in the tooth. My point above about old TLRs is that while seemingly cheaper than other options, their initial cost+an overhaul/repair quickly takes away the price advantage. TLRs were once a practical option but less so now with so many other newer MF cameras available.</p>

<p>You might also consider 645 system SLRs(Mamiya, Bronica, Pentax), all very affordable now and capable of delivering superb results.</p>

[mike_earussi1]

<p>I second the 645 suggestion of C Watson above. They are really cheap now and some really good bargains can be found on Craigslist. But given your lack of experience as to what to watch out for perhaps KEH, or any other professional store with a good return policy, would be best. And of the three 645 systems mentioned above the Pentax is the easiest to use, as well as being the lightest in weight and smallest in size. But do some research first to educate yourself about their various differences.</p>

<p>Also if you just want to play for cheap there are a lot of really decent old roll film cameras in various formats that have economical three element lenses and scale focusing that still produce excellent images. The one I used to own was an Ansco 6x9 similar to this:<br>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-ANSCO-50s-MADE-IN-GERMANY-U-S-ZONE-SPEEDEX-CAMERA-/320881630204?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item4ab6091bfc</p>

<p> </p>

[todd_phillips3]

I hear you about TLR's but I keep reading about them being reliable despite their long teeth. And if I ordered one via KEH and it wasn't immediately usable without a CLA I could return it.

 

The one thing that does still have me hesitating a bit about TLR is focusing. I've been struggling a bit with my manual focusing abilities with my 35mm SLR gear and am concerned that it will be rough going for me with the WLF as I've read some people reporting that struggle. I am pretty it's just me not being careful enough coming from DSLR... Nevertheless this is maybe one aspect where the show might help me to get a feel for what might work best for me if I can get my hands on some of these cameras.

 

I appreciate the vote for 645 but I didn't mention in my previous post that I don't want to go 645 because I want the 6x6 negs... Plus if I was going to go 645 I'd want the newer body like 645N or 645NII and that would be a more substantial investment.

 

Thanks for the input guys. I will definitely keep reading. ;)

[mike_earussi1]

<p>TLRs are easy to focus (provided the focusing lens is calibrated properly) as they have a built-in magnifier in the hood.</p>

[geos1]

<p>I've had good luck on ebay buying & selling lots of stuff. Got a great deal on a Mamiya C330. There's not much to go wrong with it except bellows which are about $75. new. The problem with the Yashica is it has cultitis - usually overpriced.</p>

[joseph_krause]

<p>There is nothing like the hands-on assessment that a camera show can afford. But after now twelve years of experience with KEH involving probably thirty purchases (mostly for Hasselblad equipment) and two re-sales, I would say the following: with few exceptions the KEH rating system is reliable, and often you are surprised by a purchase that is a mark up on the scale. My first resale several years ago was a fair deal. Recently though, my greatest disappointment with KEH is when I attempted to sell back some of my most expensive purchases from the company. The offers were humiliatingly low and non-negotiable. </p>

[todd_phillips3]

<p>Well I was able to handle many MF cameras at the show and it helped me to feel good about starting off with a budget TLR, especially for the size and weight factors. Against sound advice and better judgment I actually bought an AS-IS Yashica 124G at the show for $90. I figured something might be wrong with it for the price, but I couldn't figure out what it was and the guy was playing dumb... It seemed to be in in such good overall condition that I got impulsive and bought it. Of course I later figured out that it had a broken shutter button... Doh! Fortunately I found a reputable local guy to repair it for $68 and get to pick it up tomorrow. Otherwise Mark Hama was ready to bill me $165 to fix it up...</p>