An easy way to use 120 film in old 616. 122, etc cameras?

[joe_monahan2]

<p>I thought I asked this already but can't find the thread so I'll try again -<br>

I'm looking for feedback on an idea I have: I'm interested in the image quality of old cameras, particularly the old folding, medium format cameras like the Kodak 3A. But I would like to find an easier way to use 120 film in them. Easier that is, then the existing mods I see floating around the web.<br>

So what I'm thinking of is 3D modeling "end caps" to the 120 film cartridges and having them 3D printed. They would be made so that one could take a 120 cartridge and just insert the appropriate two end caps into each end of the 120 cartridge then pop it into the camera.<br>

There was some thought too about modeling and printing the masks that would be needed to bring the film gate down to the 120 size. Of course, here I would run into many different sizes so it might be better to limit that to a few more common cameras or forget about it altogether.<br>

I know there is not much of a market for these things but if I could cover my 3D printing costs and bring some old folding cameras back on line, I'd be happy.<br>

Thoughts?</p>

 

[JDMvW]

<p>You can always go to your "Workspace" where you will find a part labeled "Your Posts" where you can get a list of all your posts here.<br /> Your earlier one is at http://www.photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00c394 <br /> It's an archived site, so it's sort of 'selfish' to post over and over on the same topic -- and you might want to read the comments by those who took the trouble to respond to your earlier query, after all. :|</p>

<p>You can also get to your earlier posts by clicking on your <a href="/photodb/user?user_id=3936724">name</a> and looking for your "Forum Posts" - click on the number to see them.</p>

[joe_monahan2]

<p>Yes, and thank you. To clarify, I originally posted this in the medium format forum where someone kindly suggested I post it in the classic camera forum. And that's where I thought I did, but apparently didn't. So am doing so now, or rather did, tonight.<br>

Don't be too harsh. You may be old and fuzzy headed one day too :-)</p>

 

[JDMvW]

<p>I already am old and fuzzy headed, so you's can't get off thataway :)</p>

[greg_nixon2]

<p>Here is a link to a page that has a link to a PDF file on it. The PDF file details how Peter Lerro made the spacers for 120 film and also made the mask for the 116 camera. It all looks do-able with hand tools.<br>

<a href="http://kodak.3106.net/index.php?p=516">http://kodak.3106.net/index.php?p=516</a><br>

I see no reason why the end caps could not be 3D printed. The keyways for the spools are not all that big on the 120 spools, so you might need to confirm that the "printed" keys are robust enough.<br /> Good luck.</p>

[User_502260]

<p>This sounds like a job for Hin Man.</p>

[bill_delehanty1]

<p>For the use of 120 in some cameras that take 616 film, electrical crimp connectors can work well. I made some posts with the details in APUG forums category "medium format" in February and June, 2012. (I give the dates because you have to be a member in order to use the search format in APUG). These posts relate to the Agfa (Ansco) Clipper. </p>

<p>For the use of 120 in some cameras that take 116 film, Mike Connealy has tips in his blog, Photography and Vintage Cameras. He also has a discussion of re-rolling 120 film on a 620 spool.</p>

<p>Maybe some of these references will be helpful. Sorry that I have none on 122.</p>

 

[Two23]

<p>I would consider buying those adapters, if they were reasonable. There's some really cool 116 cameras out there that I have avoided because of the issue.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

[chuck_foreman1]

Keep me in the loop.. I would be adapters too if they're reasonable. Can one adapter be used for bothj 116 and 616? I guess it depends on the camera I think Kodak did this 116,616 like 120,620. Same length but different thicknesses. I think that PDF file mentioned above does address this in some manner.

[greg_nixon2]

<p>I don't think you can use this one adaptor for both spools. The 116 camera's drive key is too large to drive the 620 spool that is being used as an adaptor.</p>

[wayne_crider4]

<p>Here's some info I came across and wrote about in a thread at APUG.<br>

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum147/117150-converting-116-616-kodak-camera-use-120-film.html</p>

[User_1577653]

<p>I think this is a good idea Joe. Converting an old 116/616 folder into a panoramic 120 camera has long been on my project wish list (along with too many others!) Although I usually want to do all the crafting myself, I would definitely consider purchasing the spool extenders instead, if they were well thought out and executed, and reasonably priced. </p>

<p>One thing that occurs to me is that there may be more than one way to go about accomodating all the different cameras and film spool formats out there. On the one hand, you could simply produce unique stand-alone pieces specific to every different camera you want to consider. However, to the extent that there is some similarity among all the cameras in question (specifically, in the posts to which the spools are supposed to register) and that it is mostly an issue of making up the length difference anyway, I wonder if there is a way to come up with a more or less universal "kit" of pieces? It would include end pieces (for the 120 spool side, and then the 116/616/122/etc. post side), and then spacers of different thicknesses that you would stack between the ends. These pieces could all snap together in different combinations, stacking up to make up whatever lengths are required for a specific spool format. Then again, maybe it is even less cost effective to do it this way.</p>

<p>In any event, I hope you do this. It sounds like a fun project.</p>

<p> </p>

[jim_gibbons]

<p>I wonder if the two spacers you make could accommodate two film formats or more. Obviously the spacer would need to fit the winding key for the camera being used in but maybe the other spacer could be made for a different formats winding key since it just would be on the free floating side of the spool. Not sure if this would work, it's been awhile since I poked around with these cameras/formats. I'd be interested also in these as I've tried the other ideas with some hits and misses. </p>

<p> </p>

[joe_monahan2]

<p>Thanks everyone for your feedback. As I'm cleaning out the old cameras from the camera store I'm taking note of the different film spools. They seem to me to be more alike than different. As mentioned, the length of the spool axle (for lack of a better term) is critical.<br>

I don't know if, for example, the old Agfa film spools are interchangeable with the old Kodak spools. My hunch is they are, but maybe someone here could confirm this?<br>

The process of creating these looks like this: Take exact measurements (with calipers?) of the old spools, especially the length and the openings in the end discs. Model them in 3D software. Then the models need to be checked in two other software apps to make sure they are free of problems. - The 3D printers are picky. Then send the model off to be printed.<br>

A potential problem here is that there are allowable tolerances. I think, for example, nothing less than .5 millimeter is acceptable. If the end discs are thicker then that, or can be, then I would be good to go there.<br>

Finally, the printer has minimum runs. What they are, and what their cost is I don't know yet. But I'll check.<br>

I don't care about making money on this. But I don't have my own money to loose on it either, so I would have to be sure to cover my costs - wife's orders :-)<br>

Any additional input is welcome!<br>

Joe</p>

[greg_nixon2]

<p>I think there only 2 popular types of cameras that you are looking at, ones that take 116 spools and ones that take 616 spools. A 120 spool end looks like a 116 spool end. A 620 spool end looks like a 616 spool end. You will need an adaptor for each type of camera, a 116 and a 616. Both types of camera will be driving a new 120 spool so that end will be the same for both adaptors.<br>

<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20060108064803/medfmt.8k.com/bronfilms.html">http://web.archive.org/web/20060108064803/medfmt.8k.com/bronfilms.html</a><br>

There are others less popular, the differences are listed in the tables on the above link.<br>

I have a copy of Autodesk Inventor so I will model them in 3D. I can get a prototype printed, but not commercial quantities. I'll let you know how I go.</p>

<p> </p>

[greg_nixon2]

<p>Well I modelled them up and then used a rapid prototyping printer to print them out. The lug that drives the 120 spool is a snug fit, as is the driven groove. They do fit and work however. If I was doing it again I would decrease the size of the lug and the slot. The printer tolerance was only set to .05mm.</p><div></div>

[greg_nixon2]

<p>I can send you the CAD files and or drawings if you wish</p>

<div></div>

[joe_monahan2]

<p>I Love it. Very easy and so much simpler than the current cumbersome methods. Please do send me the CAD files. I would also like to get spool extenders for the other old folding camera formats - like the big, postcard size formats. In order to be commercially produced the 3D models have to be vetted (for lack of a better term) by other softwares.<br>

I would like to send these files to a commercial 3D printer. Some of them allow you to upload files then sell the 3D "print" directly from there site. That would make these available to anyone. Again, there is a minimum run, so there is risk. But I would sell them at cost just to see the old folders back in business.<br>

Wouldn't it be great to see these 50 to 100 year old cameras revived by the latest in 3D printing technology?<br>

Joe</p>