Marching Band, Low light stadium

eric_freedman · September 2, 2013

Hi,

It's been a long time since I have posted/asked a question.

Today, I have my poor man's kit, lol - 40D, 50mm 1.8, 100-300 5.6L, 28-135, 10-22

My son is now in the marching band and will be in a stadium for night football games. I will probably take a few football shots too.

So, I'm thinking I probably need a new body that handles low light better and a faster lens.

I am thinking of getting the 6D and non-IS 70-200 2.8. I do have a monopod.

Will that fit the bill? What do you guys think?

eric_freedman · September 2, 2013

I am also thinking about the 70-300L for a little bit longer reach. Can I push up the ISO with this lens and get some decent shots in a stadium setting?

William Michael · September 2, 2013

As a general comment, I would rather have (a good) APS-C sensor and the 70 to 200/(2.8) and also a x1.4 MkII or MkIII EF Extender (i.e. F/4) for a football stadium at night rather than using a one stop slower 70 to 300 (F/5.6) lens on a 135 Format camera for the same 'reach'.

There are plusses and minuses about the Image Quality when discussing the smaller sensor and the larger sensor and then cropping the frame later in post - but - IMO the overriding factor given same vs. same in IQ is the extra stop of lens speed when all else is maxed - that means you get one more stop of shutter speed: which when shooting sport at night under lights (or inside under lights) could be the one stop required to make the shot.

So, for Sports or other Activity under lights and where we know the shooting distances will be long and for a camera to compliment the 70 to 200/2.8 - I would be looking for an APS-C with a good quality top end ISO - and I would seriously consider getting the x1.4 EF Extender, also.

Someone other than I might make an experienced comment re High ISO of the 6D vs. 60D (just as one an APS-C example).

WW

User_6667263 · September 2, 2013

WW+1. I have both a 60D and a 6D and for the situation you describe I would take the 60D.

BT

grh · September 2, 2013

+1 on the f/2.8 lens + extender. The 300mm won't be helpful at that maximum aperture.

If you're unsure about your camera upgrade, you might try renting a (current) full frame and a newer crop frame and see what you think.

eric_freedman · September 2, 2013

So, I think the consensus is 70-200 2.8 - possibly with the 1.4 extender. - I think that gets me to F4 and around 280MM.

Just a question on the body. Does the crop camera (thinking new 70D) really outweigh the low light/high ISO performance capability of the FF 6D?

dcstep · September 2, 2013

I have the 7D and the 5D MkIII and would take the 5D3 for its superior high-ISO performance. The 6D has similar performance. If you get a 70-200/f2.8, it'll work fine on a 6D with a 2.0x TC.

If you get a 70-200/f2.8, it'll work fine on your 40D combined with a 2.0X TC. That's only f/5.6, which both the 40D and 6D will handle. I think your 70-300mm will also work fine. Just pump the ISO up to 3200 or so.

I'd suggest trying your current rig. Shoot in Raw and expose to the right, to maximize your dynamic range. Look at the high-ISO performance of the 70D vs. the 6D and the 5D MkIII and MkII on DPReview. The full-frames beat it substantially at ISO 1600 and above. Noise ruins any crop factor advantage. You'll be shooting at ISO 1600, 3200 and maybe even 6400.

eric_freedman · September 3, 2013

That's what I was thinking David. I searched around today for high iso pics with the 60D and 70D. I think I saw one test where the 70D and 60D were pretty similar in that regard. And I did not like the noise. I thought the 6D was noticeably better, and that's why my post has been slanted towards the FF. I'll probably couple that with the 70-200 and a TC.

I don't have the 70-300 L - yet, lol. I am considering that too. I have the old original coffee grinder 100-300 5.6L which has really served me well through a lot of kids baseball/swimming. But lighting was good. I knew the day was coming when my eldest was entering high school that I was going to have to up the game somewhere in my equipment arsenal for night shots.

I will probably see if can rent a 70-200 for the first game to see how that does with my 40D. Plus I am not sure how close I am going to be allowed to get on the field. I am supposed to be one of four band photographers out there. We'll have to see how it goes, but I don't think I am going to be happy with the noise on the 40D at higher iso's

William Michael · September 3, 2013

I think the consensus is 70-200 2.8 - possibly with the 1.4 extender. - I think that gets me to F4 and around 280MM. Just a question on the body.

</blockquote>

If you choose a 135 Format Camera and you also chose to buy an EF Extender, then you'll probably get more use out of the x2.0MkII EF (MkIII) than a x1.4EF Extender. As you mention it all depends how close you can get: but I would suggest that, even situated at the sideline of a football field a 140mm to 400mm zoom is better than a 98 to 280mm zoom. The EF 70 to 200F/2.8 L USM works very well with x1.4MkII and well with the x2.0MkII.

***

Does the crop camera (thinking new 70D) really outweigh the low light/high ISO performance capability of the FF 6D?

</blockquote>

As I mentioned, there are plusses and minuses. And also there is a bit of subjectivity, in so far as what each of us will tolerate apropos noise for the gain of 'reach' without using another stop of lens speed, which converts to Shutter Speed (or a lower ISO). What I am saying is: the question is more complicated than just comparing the noise of the 70D to the 6D or the noise of the 5DMkIII to the 7D. I am not arguing with the observations about noise, at comparable high ISO settings, what I am saying is (and what my original meaning was) your original question is addressing a particular shooting scenario.

Where the conversation has now developed, a typical example of practical question from a shooting scenario you will be addressing would be:

Considering the functionalities of each of these two cameras and considering post production programs available, what combination will allow me to make the shot with the least fuss and the greatest chance of a keeper and will produce the better, same sized print:

<ul>

<li>6D + 70 to 200 + x2.0EF Extender. Shooting: F/5.6 @ 1/800s @ ISO 3200. Plus a small crop, in post production</li>

<li>70D + 70 to 200 + x1.4EF Extender. Shooting: F/4 @ 1/800s @ ISO 1600. And no crop, in post production</li>

</ul>

If I were making comparisons to choose what gear to buy for a specific task as you have described, the above are the type of comparisons that I would make and I would not just compare noise of cameras at specific ISO settings.

The supplementary set of questions comprise examples such as:

"If I need more ‘reach’ then what will be better? - Plonking the x2.0 on the 70D and shooting at F/5.6 at ISO3200 or cropping a large chunk out of the 6D image."

Also note that F/5.6 is the AF Limit, so stacking the two (MkII) Extenders on the 6D, though possible, is not really a practical option.

WW

ruben leal · September 3, 2013

There is also the DOF difference. With an APS-C you have more DOF at the same FL and aperture, giving you an

advantage when trying to focus a moving target in low light with the high magnification of a long lens.

dcstep · September 3, 2013

The 70D is going to be a major improvement over Eric's 40D, but at ISO 1600 and above, the 6D is a substantial additional improvement in IQ.

sarah_fox · September 3, 2013

Eric, I think you've been given some good advice. I'm mostly a FF photographer, but I agree that crop is probably better for this use. I, too, have a 40D, and that's probably what I'd take to the halftime show. It's a pretty capable camera, although there are certainly more capable cameras in the offering nowadays.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd try shooting one game with what you already have, before dropping a lot of money on new equipment. Crank the ISO on that 40D to figure out what ISO you need to use, what speed, etc. Don't worry if the noise is too excessive. You'll only be experimenting that night. Just figure out your lowest possible working ISO to freeze motion with your minimum "good" shutter speed and available aperture. Your 40D might just be sensitive enough. You won't know until you try it.

Once you're able to load your pics into the computer, you'll be able to make more informed decisions as to whether you want faster lenses or a more sensitive body. You'll also have a much better idea what focal lengths you'll want to use.

One unsolicited tip: If your son's band director is the way mine was, I can hand you about a 2 stop shooting advantage with one simple word of advice. Learn to time your shutter with the step. (Don't listen to the music, because it will be delayed in reaching your ear and will be out of sync with the action.) With each step, everyone will lift their legs up in the air and pause very briefly. Snap your shutter THEN! (Or if they're standing in formation, snap away.) Have your son march around in the back yard so that you can practice on him. ;-)

If you want to freeze football action, your equipment demands will be a bit greater (faster action and no convenient "freeze" points). FAIW, I used to get some OK shots back in the dark ages as a yearbook photographer at ASA 800, using an f/3.5 lens. Of course we expect much more of our photos nowadays.

eric_freedman · September 3, 2013

Thanks everyone. I do plan on using the 40D with the 70-200 and will start with the 1.4x extender. We'll see if I need 2x. I hear you guys that the crop most likely will be better for this situation. And, as I stated above, I am going to wait on spending funds on a new body until I really see how well the 40D behaves on the football field.

Sarah and William - thanks for the extensive info and for the tips. I'll keep the step in mind. :)

Thanks again.

dcstep · September 4, 2013

I shoot crop and full frame. Crop will NOT be better in the situation. Better high ISO performance will far outweigh any crop factor. Start with you 40D, since that's what you have, but don't think that crop will be better in the long run, for this situation. I own both crop and FF and when high ISO is involved the FF wins every time.

keith reeder · September 6, 2013

The 70D is going to be a major improvement over Eric's 40D, but at ISO 1600 and above, the 6D is a substantial additional improvement in IQ

</blockquote>

Converted and processed properly, the 70D will have no problems whatsoever with 1600 ISO and (way) above - I use my 7D between 3200 and 6400 ISO all the time when needs be, and high ISO noise is just not an issue.

Crop will NOT be better in the situation

</blockquote>

Yes, it will - no question. As long as the files are dealt with properly. You'll lose any supposed high ISO benefit from the FF camera anyway when you crop into the files to make up for the lack "crop factor" - and at the expense of detail/resolution too.

dcstep · September 6, 2013

Despite what the crop-huggers say, I find it much easier to deal with my full-frame (5D3) files than my crop-sensor (7D) files at ISO 1600 and above. I ETTR with both bodies and try to limit NR to avoid crushing detail. With the 5D3 and 1D X files, I shoot at high ISOs with much more freedom and less worry about lost detail after conversion. In low light, I'd rather start with a better file.

BTW, looking at DPReview, the 70D files seem to be a large step forward from the 7D at higher ISOs. So, I'm looking forward to the 7D MkII, in hopes that it will narrow this gap and gain the new AF that's in the 5D3 and 1D X.

eric_freedman · September 15, 2013

Here's an update and a few photos attached from the first halftime show of the year. I would appreciate feedback on anything I could improve.

I rented a 70-200 2.8 II. I think I had more than enough reach without any extenders - I would maybe use a 1.4x to isolate some individuals better. But, as the band marched on the field, 70MM was almost too much reach with the crop body to fit the whole band into the shot. However, this lens rocks!

I pushed the 40D to ISO 1600 - its limit. I felt I needed even more ISO to keep my shutter speeds up. Results were not horrible, but they were not fantastic either. I need a body with higher ISO capability.

I tried to play around with the 10-22 and my 28-135 as well. The 28-135 seemed to show a lot more noise. Again not horrible results; however, after 14 years of a lot of use, my 28-135 zoom ring appears to be permanently jammed as well. And, for as old as it is, it's not worth fixing.

I am going to be ordering the 70D and maybe get a used 24-105 f4 L. I think with the higher ISO capability of the body, I can get my shutter speed to a decent level. I will continue to rent the 70-200 2.8. I think there are only 4 home games; so, it makes more sense to me to rent the 70-200 vs buy.

Dave and William - I hear you about the 5D3 vs crop argument. I would love to get the 5D3, but money is a consideration. Didn't really mean to start a FF vs crop battle - it seems there are opinions for both. As a frequent lurker here, that seems to be argued a lot here in varying forms on which body is better; however, the one constant, most everyone agrees that the better improvements come with better glass, and I will continue to rent a 70-200; but, I think I'll be able to use the 24-105 f4 and 10-22 with the new body. I considered the 6D, but I use my cameras for a lot of my kids baseball and from what I read, the 6D would not really work that well for sports.

I very much appreciated everyone's help and opinions. We'll see how well the 70D works when I put it through it's paces. I think it will perform much better. If not, I can always sell it for a small loss and bite the big bullet for the 5DIII.

Thanks again.

William Michael · September 15, 2013

Thanks for posting some results. I would like to see a larger version of a couple - in your Portfolio they are also small - you can post them at the maximum size allowable in your portfolio. They al look OK, posted "in line" here in the thread.

"I would appreciate feedback on anything I could improve."

</blockquote>

<ul>

<li>(When using the 40D), I reckon you could really use "H" if you needed another stop of Shutter Speed.</li>

<li>I had a brief squiz at the EXIF of each (not the instrument image): Assuming they were all made with the 70 to 200/2.8 you had about another stop of Shutter speed available to you by using a larger aperture for each - some more than others?</li>

<li>Maybe the last one is a tad underexposed: there is not as much guts and definition in the shadows, compared to the others. </li>

</ul>

WW

dcstep · September 15, 2013

Considering money, think about the cost of f/4 vs. f/2.8. A 5D2, 5D3 or a 6D all would have handled the shots that you took, but using f/4 lenses. Just saying.

eric_freedman · September 15, 2013

William - I will try to post some bigger images in my portfolio tomorrow.

I am not sure what "H" means. The last shot is not the greatest. It's a little soft - I was shooting handheld and I noticed the shutter is 1/100 as opposed to some higher speeds for the others. The first shot of the flutist is nice, but that is in daylight during warm-ups prior to the game.

Dave - while all of those bodies would have handled shots better, I will be using the 70D for sports - high school baseball/pony league - much more so than shooting the marching band. The frame rate is not there on the 5D2. The 6D I have read over and over on the net that focus tracking is not as good as the 70D or 7D and would not be that good for sports+has a slower frame rate than both the 70D/7D. And the 5DIII is just a lot of money for my amateur needs. Plus if you look at my gallery - you'll see a red car - my other expensive toy - she needs a new engine. My list of things to spend money on keeps growing :)

William Michael · September 15, 2013

"I am not sure what "H" means."

</blockquote>

I believe that the 40D has an ISO expansion - to "H" which is a ISO3200 "equivalent".

I think that you'll need to see the Custom Functions.

WW

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Marching Band, Low light stadium

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