Tray size for prints

[ardea]

Good morning,

 

I'm in the design stage of building a darkroom and need to know the

actual size of developing trays to determine my sink size. At present

the largest size I plan on printing is 16x20 inches. I'm trying to

find the actual outside dimensions of Leedal or Paterson trays of

this "size". Could anyone out there measure their trays and tell me

the real size and brand?

 

Thanks so much,

 

Richard Martel

[henry_a]

My Pattersons measure 23.5X19.25 inches. Sooner or later you'll want to turn those trays in your sink - so allow for the diagonal dimension. Or you'll want make larger prints than you think you will now. Make sure you take that into account if you have the space. A 36" deep sink with water supply overhead and big drains would be nice, IMO.

[bruce watson]

I went to my local photo supply store and measured their trays, but I can't find the numbers right now. Lot of help, I know... Still, the internal size of the well where the trays would go is 24" which will fit 20x24 trays sideways in a ladder arrangement (space limited, it's the best I can do).

 

One thing you might consider is putting your faucet and sprayers on the side of sink instead of at the back. With a big sink, it gets to be a pain to have to keep reaching across. Especially for the sprayer. When I built my sink, I divided it into two wells and put the faucets on the divider. Yes, it looks strange, but it is sooooooo much easier to use and clean up.

[neil_poulsen1]

I would allow enough size for a water bath tray in your sink, even for 16x20. I built a water-bath tray out of plastic, just a single tray for the developer tray, and my developing is a lot more consistent. I used PVC plumbing parts for the pipe that sticks up to determine the height of the water jacket. Since you are building from scratch, you could make the water bath part of your sink, somehow.

 

Let me suggest another idea. I built a dark room in my Sacramento house, and come moving time, it tore me apart to have to pull all the plumbing off the wall. I put so many hours into installing it.

 

For my current home, I purchased about a 4'x6' half-inch sheet of plywood, laid it on two saw horses, and mounted on this all my plumbing and electrical fixtures that relate to my sink. I drew up plans so that I could be sure everything would work out. I have two filters, temperature controller, three water sources for the controller, for hot and cold, and for my washer, digital thermomemter, two timers, power strip, etc. I even mounted my switch for the darkroom lights on this board. It's quite a neat looking affair, because I put all my copper plumbing on the back side of the board, and put the gear (controller, timers, etc.) on the front. Where needed, the plumbing comes at right angles through holes in this board to the front so that I can make connections.

 

I have three connectors to install this unit. One to hot water, one to cold, and one to a plug for the electrical components. This board mounts on my wall in landscape orientation on two vertical 2"x2"'s. When I move, it moves! It took me months to sweat all the copper working on it in my spare time, but it was worth it. The one change I would make to this unit is to add a separate temperature controller for my washer.

[bob_moulton7]

Another suggestion about trays: Shop at a local restaurant supply company. At times one can get rather nice Stainless Steel trays at competitive prices. A friend purchased both trays and sinks in such a fashion, the former from the cmpany, the latter from a restaurant that was ceasing business. Incidentally, at one point Leedal sold seconds, darkroom equipment with cosmetic deficiencies and/or equipment that had been ordered and then refused. The cost savings were good.

Bob

[ardea]

Thanks a lot for the good tips...With the tray dimensions provided and some other sluething in order to print up to 20x24. I can determine my sink size.

I'm somewhat limited for space, 6'x 14' being all that is available but I'm glad to have that. Being from south Florida (Florida Keys)getting or making cold water will be somewhat of a bother.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

Regards, Richard

[ardea]

Thanks a lot for the good tips...With the tray dimensions provided and some other sluething in order to print up to 20x24. I can determine my sink size.

I'm somewhat limited for space, 6'x 14' being all that is available but I'm glad to have that. Being from south Florida (Florida Keys)getting or making cold water will be somewhat of a bother.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

Regards, Richard

[j.w.]

Richard;

 

You might also want to consider how many trays you potentially want to use in your processing. For instance, "standard" processing might include 5 trays, for developer, stop bath, fixer, wash aid and rinse tray. However, you may in the future want to do selenium or other toning. This will require more space for more trays. There's also the 2-tray fixer method, and also the use of split developing.

 

My small darkroom does not allow me to do all of these at once, as I didn't plan ahead when designing it. I was a newbie at the time, and didn't know what I would want to do in the future, other than real basic standard processing.

 

I'm now considering building a shallow shelf on my "wet side", where I can lay a second tier of trays, staggered above and a bit behind the ones below. This may enable me to fit more trays into my wet side.

 

Good luck. Let us know what you end up deciding.

[brian_ellis3]

Whoever said you can never be too rich or too thin didn't have a darkroom because they said nothing about sink space. You can never have too much sink space. I'd build the largest sink you possibly can squeeze into the darkroom. One day you'll want an extra tray or two for toning or you'll want to bleach or you'll want to print larger than 16x20, or for some other reason you'll want more space than you now think you need. I'd be willing to bet that almost everyone here has at one time or another wished they had more sink space.

[greywolf1]

Hi Richard,

 

I am in the process of building a sink also. I'm making mine 30 in. by 88 in. This is plenty wide enough for a 20x24 tray. I like Neil's suggestion about board mounting the plumbing and I intend to use that idea.

 

As for the warm water problem you may have, let me be the first to offer some really cold water from up here in Canada. In fact the water is so cold on the pond today you can walk across it. :>))

 

Good Luck building the sink.

[bob_salomon]

"restaurant supply company. At times one can get rather nice Stainless Steel

trays at competitive prices."

 

Photograhic grade stainless steel and restaurant grade stainless steel are

different materials. Photographic chemistry can create pitting in the incorrect

stainless steel which can lead to contamination of the chemistry.

 

In these days of diminishing darkroom use finding the correct stainless steel

trays at a good price should not be difficult.

[ardea]

After making a number of scale mockups, (3/4"=1') I have decided on a L shaped sink. The longest run being 6'x 32" x7" turning the corner and joined to that sink will be another sink 30" x 32"x 7" and the wash sink 30"x32"x13" deep. This arangement will allow print trays for 20x24 prints with a couple of inches to spare around the trays. The sink bottoms will be sloped slightly for easy draining and no pooling.

Constructed of 3/4 marine fir plywood,epoxy fillets in the corner, pigmented 2 part West epoxy coated and the top edges of the plywood capped. 316 series stainless steel would make nice sinks but I think the above will serve me well. I can get all of the above out of two sheets of 4x8 plywood. I may lay up a piece of lightweight fiberglass cloth in the wash sink for insurance. GreyWolf, thanks for your kind offer...send a block down my way. I like the idea of modular construction with plumbing...Thanks again for all of your suggestions. Will keep you posted on construction and I'm sure I will be asking some more basic questions

Happy new year,

Richard Martel

[dee_seegers]

Richard,

 

I wouldn't waste the money on marine plywood! If you are going to seal with epoxy and cloth, then thats where your water proofing comes from. CDX plywood works just as well, and cost much less. Just put the C side toward the inside of the sink for smoothness. This leaves more dollars for other things.

 

Thin the first coat with laqure thinner,(spelling), and apply with a brush. The next 2 coats... you can brush on a little bit and spread it with one of those yellow autobody squeegees. This makes for thin coats, which is fine and also makes it go farther. Next, wet out again with a brush and lay in the cloth. Bottom first. Sqeegee off all excess resin or the cloth will float off the bottom, making it supceptable to cracking later on if you drop something on it. Then glass the bottom corners, going across the bottom and up the sides about 2 inches farther than the corner fillett will be. Then filletts. (I hate doing filletts.) Then glass the sink sides covering the filletts. Then apply at least 5 coats of west epoxy again using the squeegee.

 

When I worked in a boat shop I was told that microscopicly, WEST epoxy looks like swiss cheese, but after 5 coates none or very few holes line up to allow water to weep all the way through. It takes at least 5 coats of WEST to be waterproof. It makes no difference if the coats are thick or thin, so when we applied barrier coats, they were thin. It saves weight and cost.

 

Also, you must seal the outside of the sink with something. Otherwise it will breath, swelling and contracting and take up moisture. This, over time could cause the glass to delaminate on the inside. Cheap oil base paint works well.

 

Sorry for the long post, I've done a lot of work with these materials, and I feel like I know them well. I know you're not building an 80 foot custom sportfisher but I would like for your sink to last forever.

[james phillips]

Hi again Richard,

 

First the block of ice is on it's way. :>))

 

Not to disagree with Dee but I have another take on the fiberglass method. First is that I would use a product called 501 Epoxy rather than the West System. Both are excellent products it is just the fact that 501 is less expensive (http://www.epoxy.com/1.htm). Actually I just finished the third layer on my sink a few days ago (one layer of cloth) and it has been sitting in the heated garage with water in it for over 24 hours. Not a leak to be seen.

 

Dee's answer is correct if you wish a professional looking job. (I wish I could of had Dee come over to help with mine). I use to work for a master at fiberglassing, building speedboats and houseboats so I have a bit of experience in what I say. I determined that I did not need a work of art in a sink, as it will be covered in chemicals soon enough. I went the quick route.

 

I laid the cloth and first layer of resin at the same time. (mixed in some white tint so it looks white). This is a common practice when covering a cedar strip canoe with fiberglass cloth to do cloth and resin together. As Dee says the corners are the really hard part to get flat and ensure that the cloth has ample resin so as not to cure and show a dry spot. If that happens you will have air holes (read leaks) and will need to cut these air pockets out and patch them with resin.

 

After I did the first coat of cloth and resin I let it cure for 6 hours, trimmed the edges and added my next layer. The reason for doing it this quickly is to provide a chemical as well as mechanical bond between the layers. I then cuaght some sleep and woke in time to do the 3rd and final layer. As Dee pointed out, sealing the outside of the plywood is a very good idea. Once again I took the quick and obvious path and used the extra resin to provide a quick water resitant seal on the outside. (just one layer with the roller). I have a deep well at one end that is 14 x 30 x 12 (deep) inches. I glassed the drain fixture right into the bottom in a recessed surround I had made to fit the steel drain. (just like in your kitchen).

 

As I said, no leaks and the thing has been sitting on sawhorse supports with water in it for over 24 hours. I wanted to be sure before I brought it into the house to install. It looks OK being white but not like a custom, perfectly smooth and flawless fiberglass sink.

 

If you have questions about fibeglass procedures the I recommend that you do a search on the net on building "Cedar Strip canoes". Lots of good answers on using fiberglass and wood together can be found here.

 

Best of luck in the building,

[ardea]

Dear GreyWolf

 

Thanks...I dropped Dee an Email thanking him for his good advice. I believe both of you may be shipwrights or ships carpenters. As I told Dee I built a 43' cutter over 25 years ago, and lived aboard her for 18, thats when I started using the West System I'm sure there are other epoxy systems that are as good. I just happen to have about a gallon of West on hand. Interesting that you mention strip canoes. I built the "Redbird" out of Ted Moores book, "Canoe Craft", It's a nice tripping canoe. FYI my Fiance and I took our solo canoe's (Bell Magic and We-no-nah Prism) and canoed the upper Missouri in Northern Montana last year. Great trip! I guess I should mention that I took photo's.

 

Regards, Richard