D600 owners- feedback re AF area please

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>Shun, not sure how you can back up that statement. And I think you have made this same statement a few times. If the problem is reported then it is reported. A camera unit either has a problem or it does not. I really do not think people are reporting oil/dust issues if they are not having these issues.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Because I used one of the earliest D600 for well over a month. Nikon sent me a test sample as soon as the D600 was available last year. After a month, I never noticed any oil issue, until Lannie Kelly posted about Roger Cicala's article on it: <a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00axxj">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00axxj</a></p>

<p>After reading that article, I captured some images with the D600 at f22 against a blue sky and sure enough, there was a bit moe dust towards to the top left. I didn't even bother to clean that and continued to use that D600 at more regular apertures. Lightroom shows that I have over 1500 images captured by one of the earlierst D600 and none of them has any unusual oil/dust issue.</p>

<p>The problem is that once there is such a discussion on the web, everybody is going to start checking their D600 at f22 and of couse they will find most dust on their images than at f1.4 and f8. If you start checking any other DSLR model at f22, you'll find similar issues. See my link to Steve Bingham's post on DPReview in May, 2013 below.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I believe this problem to be a design flaw and that Nikon is well aware of what is causing the problem. I believe the problem can not be corrected without a design change, so there is nothing Nikon can really do other than clean the cameras that are sent in and hope for the best. I bet the D600 replacement does not have this problem.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>If it is a design flaw, it should affect every single unit. Meanwhile, we have some very experienced photographers, such as Steve Bingham, Matt Laur, etc. telling us that their D600 have no issues:</p>

<ul>

<li>Bingham: <a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00bGYr">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00bGYr</a> (21st January, 2013) and again on February 26, after having a D600 for almost 2 months: <a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00bN3D">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00bN3D</a>. Bingham also discussed this issue again in May, 2013 on DPReview's forum, after using the D600 for 4, 5 months: <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51446488">http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51446488</a></li>

<li>Laur: <a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00brRn">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00brRn</a></li>

</ul>

<p>The fact of the matter is that if you starting checking at f22, every DSLR is going to have some dust issues. The problem has been around for years, way before the introduction of the D600. Some self sensor cleaning is a must as long as you use DSLRs. Perhaps some D600 indeed have more issues than some others. Afterall, Nikon did issue a service advisory:<br>

<a href="https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/18180/~/to-users-of-the-d600-digital-slr-camera">https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/18180/~/to-users-of-the-d600-digital-slr-camera</a><br>

If you happen to get one with issues, which can happen to any DSLR model, get an exchange from Nikon quickly.</p>

<p>I would not hesitate to by a new D600 due to this dust/oil concern. However, while its AF still works well, I have some reservation with Nikon using the Multi-CAM 4800 on the D600. Given that the D600 has now taken over the $1700 to $2000 market segment formerly occupied by the D200/D300/D300S, I expect Nikon to update the D600-line more frequently, perhaps every two years or so. So hopefully Nikon will update the D600 with something that has improved AF suitable for an FX body.</p>

[plavchak]

<p>Shun, I think maybe I take about zero of my wedding photos at f/22. f/22 has zero to do with the problem. Friends that I have who have the D600 and are having the issue also are not shooting at f22. Their spots show up at f2.8, f/4, f8 etc, etc...and so is mine. And I'll say it again, just because you used one unit and had no problems does not mean there is not a problem. "Experienced photographers" also has nothing to do with it. If there is oil/dust on the sensor then there is oil/dust on the sensor. How experienced you are as a photographer does not make the problem better or worse. And no, if it is a design flaw that does not mean every unit would have the same problem. Go back to the car recalls. If Ford is recalling 2012 F-150s, for example, because of a sensor problem, that does not mean every 2012 F-150 is going to have a problem with it's sensor, but enough are as to force a recall. Nikon is not going to recall D600s. I stand by my opinion that Nikon knows what is causing the oil problem but is not going to recall them because of the cost. Plus no one is going to force them to do it like the government forces auto makers to recall vehicles. Yes, I am guessing at this, but there is plenty of examples of this in business. All companies make recall decisions based on cost/benefit. I just believe Nikon does not see any benefit compared to the huge cost of a recall. People are still buying the D600 and Nikon will repair them when asked, so what is the benefit to redesign/recall it? Only insiders at Nikon know the real truth.</p>

<p>Yes, all cameras will, more than likely, have dust issues at some point. But Shun, the dust/oil problem on the D600 is in the EXACT SAME LOCATION on ever unit that is having problems. If you and others don't see that as a problem unique to the D600, than I not sure what to tell you. If it was just random dust, then Okay, but it is not. It is a problem unique to the D600 and therefor a design/manufacturing problem. </p>

<p>I've owned three D300 models and two D300s. I also owned two D80 models. That's seven cameras in three different models and not a single issue with dust and/or oil. Not one. I shoot a lot of landscape and birds in flight against solid bright skies. No problems with the D300's or D80's sensors. And I will bet you right now there will not be an issue with the D600 replacement when it comes out. Whatever the problem is, we will likely never know. Nikon is not going to come out and admit they released a $2,000 camera with a problem that they are unable and/or unwilling to fix and basically telling it's customers sorry, but you will just have to deal with it. Yeah, that's never going to happen. </p>

<p>I,also, would not hesitate to buy a D600 or refer a friend to but one. It's a great camera with a slight pain in the butt design problem. Nothing that can't be worked around. </p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>"Experienced photographers" also has nothing to do with it. If there is oil/dust on the sensor then there is oil/dust on the sensor. How experienced you are as a photographer does not make the problem better or worse. And no, if it is a design flaw that does not mean every unit would have the same problem. Go back to the car recalls. If Ford is recalling 2012 F-150s, for example, because of a sensor problem, that does not mean every 2012 F-150 is going to have a problem with it's sensor, but enough are as to force a recall. Nikon is not going to recall D600s.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Mike, experience matters a lot because photographers such as Bingham and Laur are not going to:</p>

<ol>

<li>Ignore a real problem that affects their results, which is critical to them.</li>

<li>Falsely report a non issue.</li>

</ol>

<p>When people such as Bingham and Laur report, repeatedly, that their D600 have no problem, I believe them. And if their sensor needs cleaning, chance is that they know how to do it themselves rather than just complain.</p>

<p>Recall is a pre-emptive move. Companies make recalls usually because it is a hazard that can harm people or it is really bad. Nikon has made some major recalls in recent years:</p>

<ul>

<li>Practicaly every early D5000 was recalled because some electronic part would just go dead. Since there is no doubt that the D5000, about $800 new, was sold is much larger numbers than the $2000 D600, the D5000 was far more costly than any D600 recall would be, as shipping and handling cost is about the same regardless of the model: <a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00U1LR">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00U1LR</a></li>

<li>EN-EL15 recall: <a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00aJHo">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00aJHo</a> Lithium-ion can be a hazard, as Boeing found out in 2013 (this year) on the 787.</li>

</ul>

<p>I have dust issues on practically on every DSLR I use, as I currently do on my D800E and D700, and I begin to notice it on my D7100 also. Since I mainly use f4 and f5.6, sometimes f1.4 and f2, I only clean the sensor occasionally and if there is an issue, I just fix it on those important images in post processing.</p>

<P>

Additionally, Nikon would continue to improve a camera model throughout its lifecycle. Back in the 1990's, an F4 would be current for 8+ years, even after the F5 had been introduced. Nikon introduced the F4 back in 1988 prior to the Souel Olympics. A friend bought one in 1989 and I bought mine in 1990. A couple of years later, his F4 was stolen and he bought a new one in 1991/1992. After that, we got together and he documented some 7, 8 minor improvements between his 1989 F4 and 1992 F4. My 1990 F4 had a couple of those changes. For example, the 1992 F4 required two clicks to remove the viewfinder so that one wouldn't accidentally remove it.

</P>

<P>

In other words, if the original D600 shutter had issues, Nikon can certainly modify the shutter design during the course of the D600's production. But at this point, I think Nikon will more likely just replace it with something else given the short lifecycle for DSLRs. I very much would like to see Nikon put a better AF module on the D600.

</P>

[plavchak]

<p>Shun,</p>

<p>So two professional photographers who use a D600 have not reported the dust/oil problem with their cameras, so there is not a problem with the D600?? So other photographers, such as myself, would have a reason to "Falsely report a non issue" ?? </p>

<p>You said; "When people such as Bingham and Laur report, repeatedly, that their D600 have no problem, I believe them" Shun, that statement makes no sense. When ANY photographer says they are NOT having a problem with their camera I believe them. Why would I not? Only big time professionals tell the truth about camera problems? And chances are a large % of photographers buying high end DLSRs know how to clean their sensors. Takes about 5 minutes or less.</p>

<p>A camera going dead is a lot bigger issue than a dust/oil issue. So, yes, I would expect Nikon to recall such a camera. Plus I'm going to assume that Nikon knew what the problem was. No reason to recall it to make repairs if you do not know what the problem is. With the D600 Nikon has NO idea what the problem is, or they would fix it. I've seen reports, at least one on here, where Nikon replaced the shutter and cleaned the sensor and the same problem, in the same location, returned. Either they have no idea what it is, Or if they do, the cost of the fix is too great. I'm putting my money on the latter.</p>

<p>Also, for some reason, you refuse to acknowledge that since the dust/oil spots always show up in the exact same spot on the D600 sensor and is unique to the D600, that it is not a design flaw of some type. This is the third time I've said this. Your response every time is "all cameras have dust problems." I would like you to comment on the statement that the problem is ALWAYS in the same spot on the D600 sensor. Please explain why you do not believe this problem is unique to the D600. Every camera I've ever owned that did have dust, it was random. I would have it cleaned or I would clean it. Then, later, if I got more dust, it was also random. Not in the exact same place. There are reports, on this site, where owner had oil/dust. Sent to Nikon for repairs/cleaning. Was repaired/cleaned and problem returned.......again in EXACT SAME SPOT. How in the world can anyone refuse to see this is a problem unique to the D600????</p>

<p>I'm sorry to say, but your responses to questions/reports on this problem sound like spin someone working for NIKON would write. I know you do not work for them, but someone new on here reading it I would understand them believing this was coming from NIKON corp offices. Don't know what is so hard about saying .. "yeah, it looks like a lot of the D600 units are having an unknown oil/dust issue that Nikon seems not to know how to fix or chooses not to fix because of cost. The owners reporting the problem are ALL reporting it in the same location, so it seems to be unique to the D600 and NOT common dust issues you would expect with a DLSR."</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>With the D600 Nikon has NO idea what the problem is, or they would fix it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Mike, did you ever read the very first thread about this D600 dust/oil issue posted to this forum? That was the first time I learned about this issue: <a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00axxj">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00axxj</a></p>

<p>Lennie Kelly, the OP of that thread, posted a link to Roger Cicala article reporting this issue: <a href="http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/10/22/does-the-nikon-d600-have-a-sensor-dust-problem">http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/10/22/does-the-nikon-d600-have-a-sensor-dust-problem</a></p>

<p>Cicala, who owns Lens Rental and therefore deals with a lot of cameras and lenses, wrote in October, 2012:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>We aren’t absolutely certain about the cause but when we have to look at the sensors for all this cleaning, one thing is quite apparent. The D600′s shutter curtain opening seems a bit larger than the other Nikon cameras with a bit of a gap around the shutter curtain. It may well be the shutter movement is pulling dust onto the sensor.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>And in the 2nd post on Lennie Kelly's thread, Don Baccus (who used to moderate the Nature Forum along with Bob Atkins and me over a decade ago) responded:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>If you read the rest of the post you linked to, they have a hypothesis as to why this seems to be such a problem with the D600, a hypothesis that seems extremely reasonable to me.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>We are at the end of August, 2013 now, over 10 months since Cicala wrote the original article. Do you really believe that with over half a century of experience designing and making SLRs, if there were indeed any design flaws on the D600 initially, Nikon still hasn't figured out the problem and would continue to ship D600 bodies with known problems to trigger a lot of returns and warranty repairs, both of which would cost Nikon a lot of money? Nikon's management would be complete idiots if they had such a policy.</p>

<p>I would rather believe folks such as Bingham and Laur, who bought D600 a few months after the initial bunch and experience no problems. I see no reason why anybody's D600 is not as perfect as theirs. However, my advice to anybody who buys a D600 (or for that matter any DSLR) to check their camera thoroughly. On the D600, I would especially look for any oil/dust issues, but I wouldn't fixate on f22, which would show problems we noramlly don't care about.</p>

[plavchak]

<p><em>"I would rather believe folks such as Bingham and Laur, who bought D600 a few months after the initial bunch and experience no problems.<strong> I see no reason why anybody's D600 is not as perfect as theirs." </strong></em>You are joking, right?</p>

<p>You responded to one paragraph out of a five paragraph response and totally just ignored the rest of my statements/questions. Okay, maybe you do work for Nikon?? </p>

<p>No, Shun, I do believe that Nikon knows what is causing the problem. It is not happening in every unit, so they will just fix the ones that people return for repairs. It is not costing them that much, there is enough mark up that they are doing fine. They will continue this run until they replace/upgrade the D600 and make sure the problem is corrected in the next model. </p>

[donbright]

<p>That's it... I'm going to pass on the D-600 and wait for a definitive response from Nikon, or the new and improved version. I'll give Nikon the time to get through this. I just hope the answer to the D-600 doesn't include a price hike.</p>

[mccosh]

<p>I don't see what all the fuss is over the D600 oil issue, Yes there is a problem but is an easy fix well was for my D600 cleaned the sensor myself a few times during the first 10,000 shots and now no problems. Love my D600 and think I would be hard pushed to swap it for a D800 if I was offered a straight swap. The D600 oil issue is a genuine problem but has been totally blown out of all proportions. Just saying :)</p>

 

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>You responded to one paragraph out of a five paragraph response and totally just ignored the rest of my statements/questions. Okay, maybe you do work for Nikon??</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Because you are merely repeating the same argument over and over. There is no point for me to respond to the same thing over and over.</p>

<p>No, I have a day job in the software industry that as nothing to do with photography. I earn a decent living from it to support my photography hobby. Neither Nikon nor photo.net pays me at all; that is exactly the way I want it so that I can tell people that I have zero conflict of interest. (photo.net management has suggested a few times to pay for my reviews, but photo.net does not pay much and I simply declined such that, e.g. in occasions such as this time, I can claim my independence.)</p>

<p>Mike, on August 25, 5:15am, you wrote:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>With the D600 Nikon has NO idea what the problem is, or they would fix it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>In about 19 hours later, on August 26, 00:30am, you wrote:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>No, Shun, I do believe that Nikon knows what is causing the problem. It is not happening in every unit, so they will just fix the ones that people return for repairs.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You are competely contradicting yourself. That is exactly why any debate/discussion with you is difficult.</p>

<p>Again, from a consumer/photographer's point of view, as long as we agree that there are plenty of good D600 out there, and any dust problem can either be cleaned easily by the owners themselves or we can hold Nikon responsible to repair/replace any defective unit, what is the big fuss?</p>

<p><a name="00bwTf"></a><a href="/photodb/user?user_id=5180877">John McCosh</a> above probably says it much better than I can.</p>