Questions to people who moved from APS-C to Full Frame or people who own both bodies

[Member69643]

<p>My comment on DOF is correct. Others have explained, in more nauseating detail, the hows and whys of it. And as far as film goes, show me any shot on a FF sensor at ASA 100 and I'll show you the same quality shot on 35mm ASA 100 film. DSLRs win in the higher-ISO realm as I said. And that is true of full frame OR crop sensor cameras. </p>

<p>It's all about perspective. You simply don't have the same perspective with a crop sensor as with a FF one no matter how far away you are. Case in point, wide angle lenses. Everyone knows you get gigantic noses when you take portrait pics with wide angle lenses. Great if you're taking dog photos or you're Jim Phelps, but hardly flattering for most people.</p>

[Member69643]

<blockquote>

<p ><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=7354888">Vignesh Baliga</a> , Dec 05, 2012; 09:31 p.m.</p>

 

<p>Hi Patrick, I do have a film SLR (Elan 7 ) and I guess the battery still has some juice in it (last used 5yrs back). Sadly with 400D over 5yr period I have lost the ability to think, “guesstimate” a little and shoot, now it’s more like just shoot and if the image is not exposed correctly, then change the setting and shoot again and shoot some more just in case.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Aye, the immediate feedback of DSLRs is another advantage they have over film cameras, but on a quality level, you simply won't get better images (at low ISOs) with a FF DSLR as you will with your Elan 7. That's true no matter what the digital fanboys say. You mentioned you seldom use high ISO's so that's why I mentioned it. Gods forbid, that I should recommend a film camera here though. The digital fanboys come out in force when that happens. :)</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>My comment on DOF is correct.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, you wrote: <em><strong>"The only reason for full frame is shallower depth of field."</strong></em><br>

and clearly that is an incorrect statement: as there are many other reasons for using / buying a 'full frame' camera.</p>

<p>***</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>It's all about perspective. You simply don't have the same perspective with a crop sensor as with a FF one no matter how far away you are.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is also an incorrect statement.<br>

Perspective is determined by Camera to Subject Distance - that is the DEFINITION of Perspective.</p>

<p>WW</p>

 

[robin_sibson1]

<blockquote>

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=253916" rel="nofollow">Patrick S</a> <a href="../member-status-icons" rel="nofollow"><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10plus.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/1roll.gif" alt="" /></a>, Dec 04, 2012; 09:14 p.m.<br>

The only reason for full frame is shallower depth of field. And you can get that exact same depth of field with any 35mm film SLR for 1/100th of the price of a FF DSLR. There are numerous advantages to DSLRs over film though, especially in low light, but if you shoot ASA 100 film you will see no difference whatsoever. I shoot with all of them (FF DSLR, crop-DSLR, and film) and enjoy them all.<br>

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=565842" rel="nofollow">Robin Sibson</a> , Dec 05, 2012; 12:48 p.m.<br>

<em>The only reason for full frame is shallower depth of field.</em><br>

This is not correct ....<br>

Depending on whether or not you're a 'big picture' guy Robin, that may have been the only correct piece of information that Patrick offered.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> What nonsense. I am perfectly familiar with the equivalence concept, indeed as a mathematician by trade I am capable of working out the details from first principles, not that that requires anything but a bit of schoolboy trigonometry. Yes, uder certain circumstances you can obtain indistinguishable results from different form factor bodies, at least for distant subjects, although it all gets much more complicated when the subject distance is not large compared to the focal lenths involved. But that does not make FF and 1.6-factor exchangeable for all purposes, even in the DoF context. What is the FF shooter using an f/1.2 lens wide open going to use on a crop body, for example? What is the crop factor equivalent of the TS17?</p>

[matthijs]

In my experience...

 

A bigger viewfinder helps when framing wide angle shots.

It's more easy to create a good looking picture with a 5d2 than with a 400D.

It's more easy to create a good looking picture with a 400D than with a 50D.

You can create good looking pictures with "any" camera.

 

MC.

[Member69643]

<p>The key thing, in all of this, is what the intended outcome is. Let's start with a portrait. The pretty young gal has her head turned, and you want the nearest eye in focus but not the far eye. So you plop your 50mm f1.4 lens on your FF camera at f1.4 and frame her correctly. Voila! The near eye is in focus, the far eye is not. </p>

<p>This is too easy, you say, unknowingly, so you switch to your crop sensor body. </p>

<p>You don't move at all, but suddenly you can't see all her face in the viewfinder! You snap the picture anyway and sure enough, the near eye is in focus and the far away eye isn't, BUT you want a whole face picture, not just her eyes!</p>

<p>So you back up a step or two...</p>

<p>Voila! Again! The whole face is in the picture... but hey... wait a sec, both eyes are in focus... what happened? Simple. You moved far away and changed both the perspective and the DOF.</p>

<p>Not that this has anything to do with what the original post was about. I may have been too brief in my original answer, and will forever be frozen in internet time as that idiot what didn't know what he was talking about. :) I can live with that. And for anyone who's curious as to what FF can do for you, grab a cheap 35mm camera and try it out. It's the exact same image quality and will let you know if you want to spend $1800+ on a new FF body. </p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>"I may have been too brief in my original answer"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree. Your last post is entirely different in the meaning which it conveys.</p>

<p>WW</p>

[dan_south]

<blockquote>

<p>My question:<br />What is it like to shoot with a full Frame camera; do you see any change is quality?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The experience isn't much different. The viewfinder is larger. There will be more dedicated buttons and more menu options. Yes, I see a difference in quality when I look closely.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><br />I don’t remember going above ISO 800, so this big-sensor low-noise of FullFrame, will it really help? Is it really that great?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>High ISO is like closet space. The more that you have available, the more that you'll use.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><br />Since 400D only did 1/4000 max shutter so I never realized how a faster shutter could help, is that a disadvantage for 6D? </p>

</blockquote>

<p>Uses for shutter speeds faster than 1/4000s are relatively rare. I don't think that this will make much of a difference.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><br />WiFi and remote view & shoot is a good feature</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Only if you need them. I've never once used these features on a camera.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>but not sure if it’s worth the extra money (for 6D) while I still miss out on sharp focus and live with relatively slow shutter</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I don't understand what this means. Please clarify.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>plus no flash.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The flash that's built into your camera is effectively worthless. Plan to buy a flash unit or two if you're serious about flash photography.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><br />On the 400D, I always had it on center point AF so not sure if the advantage of 7D (multi cross point) over 6D greatly helps me.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I like my 5D2's center point AF. It works well for me. There are situations where those extra points can come in handy. It's very useful in sports and portraiture shooting.</p>

<p>Note that your biggest expenditure when you switch formats will be lenses. If you can't afford good lenses for a full frame camera, stick with cropped frame cameras for now. Without the proper lenses, FF isn't worth the expenditure.</p>

[zack_zoll]

<p>Patrick, I still disagree on your idea of using a 35mm film camera to "try out" a full-frame digital, as they are "the same quality." They are the same size pickup device, and as such will offer the same depth of field with the same lenses and settings. That is all. The two mediums respond VERY differently, and one does things slightly better than the other, and the other way 'round. It's almost as though Vignesh is looking for a new pair of dress pants, and you hand him a pair of jeans in the same size to see what he thinks. Yes, it will answer some questions, but it doesn't answer most of them, since it isn't the product he's looking to buy.</p>

<p>But in the interest of fairness, I do have to say that you're totally right about DoF and sensor size. I shoot with a 4x5 a lot, and just a few days ago I photographed someone wearing glasses. The 'normal' lens for that camera is 150mm. I moved in closely enough that her head was filling most of the frame, and I used an aperture of f/22. I <em>still</em> only got her glasses in focus, and her eyes were both slightly out of focus, as was her nose. Of course, I was probably 2 1/2 or 3 feet away.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, I had zero trouble getting the whole face in focus using my 135mm lens on my APS-C camera (sorry - I don't have a 150mm for that) and shooting at f/5.6. I probably could have done it at f/4 as well, but I didn't try. Either way, that's two similar lenses giving a DoF difference of at least four f/stops, based solely on the size of the pickup device, and how far away that meant that I needed to stand.</p>

[philip_wilson]

I own both the 5D2 and 7D and find that I will always pick up the full frame body before the APS-C body unless I am

shooting sports. I do prefer the 5D2 images, the larger viewfinder and the lack f a crop factor on the lenses. I also find

that using my 17F4 with the 7D is rather awkward (as are some of my adapted TS lenses) as the flash on the 7D can get

in the way. Both are good cameras but I pick up the FF one first when I shoot.

[vignesh_baliga]

<blockquote>

<p>If you get another person and you have a 50mm and an 85mm; or (technically a bit 'better') if you have an 85mm and a 135mm; and the two cameras - <a href="../photo/13136700&size=lg" rel="nofollow">you can do this.</a></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thanks for the link William, that's a good idea!</p>

[vignesh_baliga]

<p>Thanks Dan!</p>

<blockquote>

<p> High ISO is like closet space. The more that you have available, the more that you'll use.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> I guess you are right, and liked your analogy :-)</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>but not sure if it’s worth the extra money (for 6D) while I still miss out on sharp focus and live with relatively slow shutter</p>

</blockquote>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I don't understand what this means. Please clarify.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> I am sorry. Here I was trying to compare between 6D and 7D, highlighting the –ve points of 6D. i.e. more expensive but 7D is said to be better in focusing and has higher shutter speed .</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>The flash that's built into your camera is effectively worthless. Plan to buy a flash unit or two if you're serious about flash photography.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree. I have an old manual flash that I modified (fixed the hotshoe voltage) for 400D. But sometimes its pain to carry it and so I will use the popup flash with some diffuser.</p>

<p>Regards,<br>

Vignesh</p>

[seragram]

<p>Sound like you have not outgrown your 400D yet.<br>

My advise is invest in L glass. (This will make greater difference in you images)<br>

If you must buy a camera. (We all want that here including me)<br>

5D full frame $800 and 40D APS $450 (current used prices now +- $100) best bang for your buck right now.<br>

If you go the new route.<br>

5D MkII or 7D (best crop sensor IMO)</p><div></div>

[vignesh_baliga]

<p>Hello All,<br>

Thank you everyone for the help and suggestion. I just bought 7D w/ 18-135mm (kit lens) and 100mm L macro from B&H.<br>

Regards,<br>

Vignesh Baliga</p>