Groom not happy?

[rick_m.]

<p>Tavia. You have said several times that you like your style. I think you may be missing the point. The idea is not to give the couple what you like but rather what they like. Getting what one likes is why one goes to a professional. Before the wedding you can ask the B & G to pick from your portfolio the look they like the best. </p>

<p>Here is another suggestion. You said you shoot 100% manual. If you had slipped over to green box periodically you would have had insurance against a problem like this. I am not talking giving up your style or shooting a wedding entirely on easy mode but rather an easy way of backing up your artistic style with record photos you can use in a pinch. </p>

<p>Check out strobist if you haven't already. You may be surprised what your flash can do. </p>

<p>I think you have a great future in the business. You don't need an overhaul, just some tweaking. </p>

[bob_osullivan]

I wasn't going to comment, but after reading Bob B's last post I feel compelled to. Bottom line, I think you delivered well over $300 or

$400 whorth of value. So get over it and move on. I admire Bob's work ethic and passion. But, at least here in the northwest, there is a

tiered market. This market is comprised of low budget, middle and wealthy clients. Photogs here get from $50 to $50,000 per wedding.

There's a Butt for every seat.

 

You're style is different from mine but I appreciate it. My one critique would be to be more discriminating in both your shooting and in

your post triage image selection. I typically don't like "no flash" style but you've got some really good stuff here. You'll never please them

all. I think your product is worth about $1,000. Just my two cents.

 

Let it rip Bob...lol and "respect".

[tavia_llando]

<p>Oh, I totally forgot! But I *Did* try to appologize to the groom about the 2 week delay, and offered a free 8x12" (metallic paper print framed). They didn't reply to that - as I asked them to choose it. I then asked about the photos after christmas, which only then I found they were disappointed :<</p>

[tavia_llando]

<p>@Bob b I did my best. (Also this *is* a fake name) But think of it as a music concert, one is a student pianist that charges $20 and the other is vladimir ashkenazy who charges $200. Both are going to try their best, practice incredibly hard and on the day Ashkenazy is always going to be better then the student - no matter how much effort the student puts in. For this wedding I gave my very best, (19 hours + 50-60h). I don't know how I could have done better apart from the aparture and lack of variety. Which is what makes me so heart broken that they didn't like the photos, were "disappointed and thought they'd be a bit better", because I really did try - and I really want to please them. "If I were the couple I'd be pretty upset" - can you explain to me why they would be upset, this is why I started the thread to determine what the problem is, as the comments I've received from the groom are pretty vague. And no, I am not giving any refunds - however I'm not chasing up the extra $100 either. <em> </em><br>

<em> </em><br>

I love weddings though, more then any kind of other photography. Portraits and events are easier money for sure, but I really don't like doing them as much. I'm pretty awkward at posing people, and at events I feel silly asking everyone to take their photo (because if I don't ask some people get annoyed at me). So I would rather do weddings: I get a story, take photos of happy people who are looking their best, and I like capturing moments. (Also 2 people who love each other are easier to pose then a model or a little kid). That sounds so lame but it's true. <br>

<br>

In regards to marketing and sales, that's where I want to avoid spending my hours. I love advertising though! I've been to marketing conferences before (I went to every single session), worked with marketing teams for massive software companies - and even presented a marketing spiel to the company, and have done door to door phone sales. However I hate it! I'm willing to price myself 50% less if I can avoid learning how to market my small business with virtually no budget. (Especially since you can't really do guerrilla tactics or outdoor marketing which is the part I love).<br>

<br>

<br>

@Rick M. Great idea about getting to pick stuff from my portfolio first! And I'll definatly check out strobist. :( Unfortunatly a lot of that stuff is expensive - however bunnings (a hardware shop here) has lots of cheap lights.<br>

@Green I think you're right. I think I was hoping by offering a lower price, they'd appreciate the effort being put in rather then still making demands, or there is always going to be disappointment. I hope I can do the same thing that you did :)<br>

<br>

Okay. So mix the style up, shoot more naturally. Hopefully next time I can suss out what they like. </p>

[personalphotos]

<p>I agree with most of the comments above and think you should read over this thread a few times to rethink your business practices.</p>

<p>What you have here is cheap clients who want a cheap $400 price and expect a high end $2000-3000 product. You continue to charge prices like this, expect clients like this. Every single time I book a cheap date (maybe to fill an empty time slot or whatever) I get the same customer. They expect the world for nothing and are the first to complain about everything from delivery to some random missed shot that was never discussed. This type of customer does not respect what you do and will never respect the work. They only see the money and how cheap the deal is. Keep charging these rates and you'll keep getting this customer.</p>

<p>You need to look at every aspect of your shooting and business.<br>

1) You shoot too many images and are not spending a moment each time to make sure you get a good shot of the scene. Spray and pray is no guarantee of good results. An experienced shooter will have a 'keeper' rate of 50% or better. For a day like this and 650 delivered top quality images, you should have shot maybe 12-1300 images. Making sure each shot was as good as you can produce.</p>

<p>2) A better understanding of light and lighting to ensure the images produced are flattering. If they aren't, they should be deleted. Don't deliver something that shows dark under eye regions etc just because you think they should have that shot anyway. You could deliver 500 great images and 100 poor ones. What do they see? They see 100 poor images that, in their eyes, make the rest look less than they really are.</p>

<p>3) More natural editing. This "Instagram" style is a fad that will soon pass and already has people very tired of the look. That style will not stand the test of time. Solid natural or B&W shots are what people want 10 years from now. Not this over exposed, pee green-yellow stuff that passes for stylish editing.</p>

<p>4) $10/hour working time (39hrs/$400) plus 2 days travel time? Assuming you pay taxes, insurance and amortize you equipment costs. You may not know it but you lost money on this and similar deals. I calculate $1500/year in equipment wear and tear plus other costs each year. That all works out to about $250 depreciated value and costs (insurance, web site and other costs) per wedding. So based on that, you earned $150 less taxes for 3 days work. Subtract the $100 you'll never get from these people and you made $50 for 3 days. Get a job at a local coffee shop and make more money.<br>

Charge more, work less and get better clients who won't take 25% as a hold back cost because you didn't totally satisfy them.</p>

<p>In this case, write it off. Do not spend any more time on this and close the book on this wedding. Look at every part of what you are doing and stop charging $1.50/hr rates.</p>

[savagesax]

Your digging yourself deeper and deeper in this never ending hole.

 

I keep this quiet, because it's from several years ago. Very few people know this. I played the saxophone with Cher and I've been on some sound tracks such as the very first "Friday the 13th" movie in NYC and I also played in the first Rocky movie soundtrack in Philly.

 

I did get paid well. Actually I still get royalties form some of my past gigs.

 

However, while in college I had to play on the dam street, called Chestnut Street in Philly, because I didn't have a penny in my pocket. I can't begin to tell you how insulted I felt playing for a few bucks in tips in 20 degree weather, so cold you can hardly move your fingers. The wet reeds would freeze on my lower lip causing it to bleed.

 

So you have it. Although I'm not Kenny G, although I did record with him, I was good. I actually taught at Kent State University and York College of Music. I know Kenny well enough to tell you what he eats. He's a vegetarian. Loves apples and nuts. We are in contact with each other. He just cut a record with his 15 yr. old kid.

 

Where am I going with this you may ask...I was a fantastic player, better then most musicians, good enough to teach college, but I was also broke for several years. $3 in tips, playing on the streets was enough for a bowl of soup or some rice, yet I was a good player.

 

"vladimir ashkenazy who charges $200". You are correct. However did he struggle like I had to at the beginning of his career? I bet he played a mess of concerts for free until he hit his mid 20's before being able to make a living.

 

One of my present passions is composing music to go with my photography work. Will I get a contract to produce a DVD? Who cares. I don't. I just do this for the passion.

 

I would still like you to email me and I will tutor you on what you did wrong with your photos.

 

I want to make you hungry for for passion. Did you know Ansal Adams was a concert pianist? He must have been good. However he liked photography better. More passion perhaps? I sure think so.

 

Here is one bad example of your work....

 

Why is the groom holding the bouquet instead of the bride? If I were this groom the last thing I'd want as a 24X30 inch, framed enlargement hanging in my house is me, the groom holding flowers. Those images would never be hung in my house and I'm sure most grooms feel this way - it's not just me. Well you did this on more then one image so it's a serious mistake. If it was just one image I'd over look it.

 

If I sound as if I'm being rude, I'm not. For whatever reason, you are seeking others opinions and needless to say we all want to help. Well I feel you needed to know where some of us photographers went through to get to our levels. I was lucky when I started; I had a buttload of money saved up and I was still performing while learning the wedding photography trade.

 

I hope this helps. You've gotten 4 pages of postings so far. 29 posts. Theres some good info here.

[savagesax]

Bob O'Sullivan - Thank you for your kind support. I think we came from the same mold. I know for sure there are others here that came from this same mold you and I did. My best regards.

[tavia_llando]

<p>@Bob b<br>

Right, but my point about the musicians is, the clients possibly have the expectation of Ashkenazy yet paid for a student performer (And I also did piano for many years). In saying that, I set my prices to be that of a student performer - not of a concert great. <br>

In my first post I was eluding to the clients having exceptions on the Ashkenazy end, not of the student end. Simply put, I won't deliver what a $2000 photographer does, because I can't (I don't have as much experience, I don't have marketing, I am terrible at and dislike social media), and even though I tried my very best and I think the photos are good value for what they got. And I honestly don't understand why they were disappointed with the final product (apart from some of the things that you guys mentioned).<br>

<br>

And I'm not saying Ashkenazy is raw talent - I'm saying he's got years of experience/hard work mixed in with some raw talent, and that at the start of his career, he probably wasn't as good as he is now, but I bet then he was performing at student prices (rather then rates he is charging now). Everyone has to start somewhere, there's no magic dust to make you better. <br>

From doing piano for 18 years myself, I'd say street performing is like practice, you are not really performing. (Just like taking photos for fun), and if you get paid - great, if not, that's fine to. However the actual performance (say in a hall to an audience) you should get paid for in proportion to your talent, because you're not playing for yourself any longer. You need to practice 4h a day for many weeks of the same piece on order to be good. Same goes as Weddings, if I was a guest, I would not spend as much time and effort on those photos, as I would being the main. It's a job, gig, whatever not practice.</p>

<p>In regards to the flowers: The Groom has to hold the flowers and give them to the bride based on riddles that the brides maid has. (It's quite possibly a Russian thing) I'm also highly against stopping and starting weddings, and would rather capture weddings on how they happened rather then interrupting peoples days. I'm not going to stop them walking down the isle and go "Wait! You're not supposed to be holding the flowers, give them to the bride".<br>

I'd love to hear what you have to say on some of the other things I did wrong in terms of composition, shall email you shortly. <br>

<br>

@Peter: Thank you so much for some of the advice. Editing time I'm happy to go under $10 an hour (Australias minimum wage is like $20) purely because it's pretty mind numbing and I can watch talks or podcasts in the background. Really good point about the composing shots more. I think that's the main thing I need to work on. I also feel guilty if I don't include 1 shot of everything - should I have maybe a "extras" folder, incase they really want an image? Or should I just deliver 100-150 images straight out? I definitely lost money: luckily I enjoy what I do. <br>

I'm working on revamping my website now; I've given it some thought - just on a ballpark figure: $1000 with 150 prints + 12 6x8"s and 2 12x8" too much? Pricing is one of the things that I'm really bad at and I get all nervous when people ask me how much I cost ><' </p>

[savagesax]

Cool Tavia, I look forward to sharing ideas through emails. It's close to 2 AM here in California and I will be heading to sleep knowing this could be a lot of fun for the both of us. It won't take you long to become a well respected photographer. It will be a learning experience for us both.

 

Tavia, as you keep working try to post an image asking the people here what they think. You said you practiced piano a lot. Well I'm with you, it's a lot of work, hundreds of hours of preperation for just one performance. Weddings are a lot more fun and much easier to catch on and exploring your creative mind.

 

Can you try to practice a bit everyday? It can be anything. I will try to upload a photo I worked on this past week. After about 100 tries I got the image to pass my standards. This glass bowl took hours to get the strobes right and to get rid of the glare, but yet the need to keep some reflection at key points. I think I put in about 10 hours. It's a bowl with blue food coloring, water, a marble, and a very thin piece of fishing line. It was a wonderful learning experience.Well this was a lighting lesson for me for the week!

 

Can you do something using your flash this week?

 

I now completely understand where you are coming from. Hope this image pops up.

[savagesax]

Another try... By the way, it's not a masterpiece of course. Just a lesson I wanted to do. The thin fishing line super glued to the marble was photoshopped out.<div></div>

[daverhaas]

<p>I'm a little late to the party, so I'm not going to rehash what has already been covered regarding pricing and expectations.</p>

<p>The photos I looked at showed a great inconsistency in color and intensity. The bride did look like she has no or little makeup on in most of the shots. Some of the photos showed a natural skin tone (slight tan / yellowish) but many were pasty white. </p>

<p>The two shots that someone (Green, I think) pointed out - the first solo shot should not have been in the final cut. The second would have worked, had the color been on.</p>

<p>Also f2.8 and great is good for some shots, not all. There's a time and a place for f2.8 and wider...and a time and a place for greater DOF.</p>

<p>The other complaint seems to be around the timing - a voice of experience here, never give them a window of 1.5 to 2.5 months... Give them a date and stick to it. Even it means you have to a) outsource the work, b) stay up all night, or c) give up some things... When you give a range, the client says - okay - it will be done sooner rather than later. The client tends to fix on the earliest date given, not the latest. They also tend to not accept excuses, because that is placing other things before them and their needs. </p>

<p>Think of it like this:<br>

If you handed in your project for your class on time and the prof said - I'll have them graded between the 2nd and 9th of January. You'd be checking the website on the 2nd - expecting your grade. Then imagine if the Prof called or emailed and said - sorry something came up - It won't be graded until the 16th. How would you feel? Exactly how the bride and groom felt. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[matthew_lee6]

<p>This kind of situation makes me want to give up evolving my business as a professional wedding photographer. Your photos are good and you should be proud of this work especially at this price point. I peruse a lot of websites and your work is comparable to photographers charging 5 to 10 times more. Your work tells a story, shots are in focus, composed and exposed as desired. The processing of 3000+ photos would take days. For $400, the B&G have no right to complain, unless they planned this from the start to save $100. Maybe they asked a friend to comment who found slight fault. This subsequently made them question the value they got from their photographer, when it is clear that they were after an absolute bargain; I avoid this is kind of customer. <br>

I take it personally when any of my customers are not 100% ecstatic with the photos I give them and I know how you feel. The client's satisfaction is one of the major reasons I want to do photography.<br>

Out of interest, how did you generally apply clarity (Lightroom speak) in your post-processing of these photos? If you have pushed the clarity generally higher across your photos, it might be causing some of the issues. I would consider making virtual copies of the photos in your catalogue and doing a global sync decreasing the clarity and making the photos softer. Send the new DVD to the couple and ask them what they think.<br>

Good luck. Take this as a learning experience. Forget the $100. Your reputation as a photographer is more important.</p>

[emspace]

<p>Tavia: I wasn't going to chime in but some of the comments here seem too harsh to me, that I thought I should add that I think the main problem you have is less photo technique than client perception.</p>

<p>Someone else already mentioned this, but I think it bears saying again: frugal folks looking for a deal on otherwise expensive and unrepeatable services are far more likely to be “underappreciative” than those who value the service and pay what’s fair.</p>

<p>Since you’re determined to service this one market, there are a few business tips you should really work on. First, <strong>manage expectations</strong>! That’s HUGE, and that applies no matter what you charge. In your case, since you’re giving people a cut-rate deal, you really <em>really</em> <strong><em>really</em></strong> need to make clear what you’re delivering, both quantity- and quality-wise.</p>

<p>Even if you’re all busy graduate students, you need to have a sit-down meeting with your clients beforehand to show them — in person — your images in an album. You have to watch their expressions as they turn the pages and look at your pictures. You have to watch how long they look at some images, and how fast they skip over others. This will tell you OODLES about what they like, what they don't like, what they care about, and what they don't care about. </p>

<p>You have to explain what your style is, what your process is, how you shoot, what sorts of images you favour. Explain PJ style, point out how it’s different from classical wedding photography. Tell them what you favour: lots of light, pastel colours, shallow depth-of-field, backlighting, natural light, soft light, whatever. And then show them what you mean by that. Most photographers dislike the salesmanship side of the business, but this part (even after you close the sale) is so important! You have to be sure there is no mistake about what your style is and what they’re going to get. You can't leave it to them looking at some galleries online. You need to walk them through what they're seeing.</p>

<p>Listen to their comments. Ask them about how they envision their wedding; again, this gives you so much information about what they care about.</p>

<p>Second, you need to set boundaries for your business. Yes, you absolutely want to make the B&G happy. But you also have to put limits on what you're going to do.</p>

<p>Since you're so busy, you need to speed up your proof processing. They don't need to be print ready — and again, you need to explain this upfront, and perhaps over and over, that the first set of proof images you send are only base corrected for brightness/contrast, etc. There are no touch ups. Get the first batch out within the first month, (I would even say 2 weeks) and let the B&G decide what they want processed. Otherwise, you’re spending far too much of your time and effort on something they might not even appreciate or like in the end.</p>

<p>Don't do more work than you have to! You're only charging $400!</p>

<p>I would also severely limit the number of photos you deliver as proofs; 650 is absolutely too many for $400 (at that price, I’d stick firmly to under 300). Even if they asked for 650, I would tell them the number is part of the package. If they want 650, they have to pay more (double).</p>

<p>As a business practice, giving away work for free never gets appreciated. They just think they got a great deal out of you, but that means now they know they can keep nickel-and-diming you for more.</p>

<p>If, during these conversations, it becomes apparent that your clients aren’t going to be happy with either your style or your limitations, you have to be willing to walk away. After all, is that $400 really worth this much hassle and stress in your already stressful student life?</p>

<p>You may have sympathy for your fellow grad students, but you can't take all the pressure onto your own shoulders — unless you truly don't care about money or gratitude. Bless your heart if that's the case.</p>

<p>Last thing: I understand as someone starting out you want to go easy on your friends. I can say after having done “favours” for friends, shooting their families and weddings, that it is absolutely not worth the pain of feeling taken for granted or feeling taken advantage of just to help save your friends some money. It's much better to be on the outside looking in on that. Let them pay someone else and give them grief. I have a very good friend who didn't like her wedding photographer, didn't even get an album printed, and probably paid half (or less) the going rate in this area. Even today, 8 years after the wedding, she doesn't value any of the photos that were or were not taken that day. I’m very happy I never volunteered to shoot her wedding. That is NOT the kind of bride I want to shoot for, even if she paid more than $1400. If you care even a little for the work you do, you don't want to work for someone who barely musters a shrug about her wedding photos. Not only will that person be impossible to please (strangely, “I don’t want to waste money on photos of that one day” = “All the pictures he took were horrible!”), they’ll never lead you to more business or show your photos to anyone!</p>

<p>So in reply to your plea:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I sort of am worried. And I don't know how to please them or make them right? Cause I really, really want to</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I really don’t think there’s anything you can do now to make them happy. How much do you want to bend backwards for them? If their happiness matters more to you than your bottom line, send the images to a pro processing lab. That gives you both an objective middleman to work on the images, and you’re offering a “professional” solution at not extra cost to them. There are lots of other things you can try to do to make it up to them, but I would argue it’s not in your interest to do so. Whatever you offer, the chances of them raving about your bend-over-backward service to all their graduate friends after this are slim, and besides, you’re not running a boutique business. You’re not trying to make money, so all this extra service (read: work & expense) is just not worth it. If these people had paid $4000, I’d be advising you to bend. For $400, just do whatever you have to to make them go away.</p>

<p>For what it’s worth, I don’t think your photos are horrible. They’re very good and far better than many other “wedding photographers” I’ve surfed who charge 5x more; and I get the style you’re going for. Yes, it’s “popular,” but so what? Everything goes in and out of fashion, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. That's part of the joy of looking at old photos: that they look dated and “of the time.”</p>

[green_photog]

<blockquote>

<p>Even today, 8 years after the wedding, she doesn't value any of the photos that were or were not taken that day. I’m very happy I never volunteered to shoot her wedding. That is NOT the kind of bride I want to shoot for, even if she paid more than $1400.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This usually has nothing to do with the photo quality. Familiarity breeds contempt; it's hard for a friend to appreciate the talent of another friend even if that person has true talents. Had your friend paid someone she did know big bucks and received the same set of photo, I bet she would have liked them more. This is just people's nature.<br /> </p>

<p> </p>

[jeff_sudduth]

<blockquote>

<p>For what it’s worth, I don’t think your photos are horrible. They’re very good and far better than many other “wedding photographers” I’ve surfed who charge 5x more</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I have to agree with this statement. There are issues but if you surf the photos of others asking advice even on this forum these images look far more competent. I think your problem is you have decided to be very stylistic. Some will like it and some won't. The suggestions about the flash should help too. The strobist blog suggestion is a good idea. There is some nice info there and you can even buy some dvds to see what they do with simple flashes and modifiers.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I get the style you’re going for. Yes, it’s “popular,” but so what? Everything goes in and out of fashion, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. That's part of the joy of looking at old photos: that they look dated and “of the time.”</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I tend to disagree with this statement. A properly composed and exposed shot is timeless. The clothes or the hair may go out of style but a well made photograph is timeless. There really is no reason you can't have some stylized shots and some more traditional shots. I liked the suggestion of doing a few full auto shots. Not everyone is going to get your style. Plus I wouldn't want a bunch of trendy stylistic photos of my wedding day. Some are fine but at a certain point I will want some realistic pictures to show the grand kids so they don't think everything in 2013 looked like a cheesy Instagram filter. Shoot some pictures on full auto also for the uncivilized types that can't comprehend anything other than infinite DOF cell phone shots.</p>

<p>I was quite surprised when I read on this forum the advice someone gave to a wedding photographer regarding DOF. They said to limit how often you used it because if you use it beyond a certain amount people will start to question why shots are "blurry." I frankly never really thought about it. If I am going to do protrait shooting I usually pick up a fast or long prime... or both. Your photos look like someone actually thought about what they were doing and made some decisions. I like that. But with all the stylized stuff and limited DOF I can see where you would run into trouble.</p>

<p>Always remember <strong>VANILLA is the number one selling ice cream</strong>. Always has been. Always will be. Give them chunky monky and rocky road but always make sure you have some vanilla on hand.</p>

<p>I also echo what others have said. Edit until you are happy. By which I mean only select the images you are comfortable with. If you have someone that can give you an honest opinion and spot things like the shadows under the eyes then let them look at the project while you are still honing your skills. Get a decent zoom lens. The fact of the matter is you probably could have used a kit lens on auto and come up with plenty of shots most customers would like. Customers aren't pixel peepers. Fretting about the difference between a 400D and 5D MKII you've learned is pointless when dealing with the vast majority of the public. You could have easily gotten the latest iteration of the 400D and had tons of money left over for a very nice speedlight and L zoom lens. I don't even know what to say about the Canon TS-E 24mm. Do you do architecture shots too or are you just using it to blur parts of portraits. You have a very expensive and oddly specialized setup. I really don't know what to make of it. The absence of a zoom is disquieting... and this is coming from a guy who shoots medium format film on a regular basis.</p>