Kodak to Sell Film Business - Shoot it While Ya Got it.

[jim_eckberg]

<p>On August 24th, Eastman Kodak announced it was trying to sell its film division by sometime in early 2013. The founding product group of the company. Gone. Stupid.</p>

<p>http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/24/news/companies/kodak-film/index.html</p>

<p>After this notice was made known in the press, major retailers (such as Target stores and others) quietly began closing-out what remained of their film stocks from their shelves. Why order or carry a dead product?</p>

<p>OK, the trajectory is in place. There are exceedingly few large companies that would see any reason to buy Kodak's photographic film production as it is entirely a proven profitless endeavor. Yeah, forget China; pipe dream. That means that film, as readily-available commodity, will probably cease to exist within a year or so - maybe less (IMHO). Never mind the other producers, they'll be gone quickly, too. The pros and their voracious film use are what kept film being made and held down costs for the rest of us back in the day. Few pros shoot film anymore. Hobbyists really can't support the enormous costs of boutique film production. If film does continue to some degree, get used to 25USD (or much more) per roll.</p>

<p>SO . . .</p>

<p>Get out there and shoot film with that classic manual camera of yours! Fall is a great time to expose roll after roll of film. Do it before it's gone. Your old-school MF lenses can soldier on as adapted oddities for digital cameras (bless their little glass hearts), but soon film will be all but gone. Deep down, you knew this was coming.</p>

<p>I've got a Rolleiflex, a Contax IIa, some Kodak Retinas, and my late brother's Nikon to load for a photo safari to Lake Superior's North Shore splendor this weekend. I've scrounged some closeout rolls of Kodak color negative film from a bin at the local pharmacy. They can still do the processing when I get back. The digital camera will stay home; the little swine.</p>

<p>So long film, I knew you when. I'll still be collecting vintage manual cameras. That needn't stop just 'cause the film to use in them is gone.</p>

 

[JDMvW]

<p>Old news, see http://www.photo.net/casual-conversations-forum/00amvN</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>They are trying to sell the film MARKETING business. They will keep making it for a while, since they are not selling the Eastman movie film business, and they are all made on the same production line.<br>

Someone else handling retail distribution for Kodak's professional and consumer films would probably be a big plus. They would be easy to deal with, which Kodak never was. They would eliminate the two different marketing arms (consumer and business), there's really only one buying base for film today. For instance, the consumer business dumped Verichrome Pan, even though it could have sold fine through the professional business as a portrait film. </p>

[brian_m.1]

<p>Why would Fuji stop making film? Surely, there is enough worldwide demand for ONE brand. </p>

[rick_schuster]

<p>The reports of film's death have been greatly exaggerated.</p>

[subbarayan_prasanna]

<p>It is quite understandable that Kodak would want to sell their film marketing division, if that is the case. My experience with them, in India, is that their sales executives are (1) elitist; (2) they are on fat salaries and perks; (3) they do not want to talk to any lay consumer about his needs, unless he wants to buy some 1000 feet of film; (4) even the newly recruited MBA types are soon converted to this kind of culture. It appears as if Kodak is in the same kind of situation as IBM was in the 1980s. Most retailers who used to sell Kodak Gold film are now selling mostly Color Plus, here. Strange as to how an inviting attitude toward common consumers has changed to a self-destructive elitist arrogance. I have talked to many photo retailers here in the various neighborhoods. They do not go near digital cameras due to the high cost and risk related to accumulating older stock. They stick with the color film, lab connections and cheap cameras. Now they will, probably, move to Fuji or go out of photo retail business. sp.</p>

[horace_t]

<p>Yeah, I don't think film is going just yet (if ever). But it's going to need a different business model than Kodak was built on.</p>

[dennis_w3]

<p>I can't imagine that film could go away as long as there is enough demand for a few manufacturers to make a profit at it. The same analogy goes for vinyl records. There is still enough demand for them that they are still produced and, in fact, demand is increasing and the turntable and cartridge/business is booming.<br>

On the other hand, if I hear that film is going away, I'll buy up every roll of BW film I can get my hands on, and enough developer and fixer to process them. I already have about 50 in my freezer.</p>

[yuri_yupiter3]

<p>There is denial here about Kodak on this board.</p>

<p>Kodak is like a drunk troubled neighbor with a gambling problem. The declining film business is profitable but the poor management reinvests these profits to other businesses that have a flat or negative rate of return.</p>

<p>*** Kodak COULD just stop all diversity quest and ONLY focus on film and still be around for 10 more years. BUT the management is hell bent on being the king of inkjet and the printing world. The film division and oddball patents are viewed as assets to pay off the loan sharks who injected raw cash to keep Kodak afloat. </p>

<p>They really do not have the luxury of being independent anymore. Due to super poor management they have been in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy since January. To make ends meet they had to get a line of credit from Citibank for 0.95 Billion. Kodak has more debts than assets.</p>

<p>Kodak preached that its patents up for sale were worth 2 to 3 Billion. Since the management is so poor they bundled the patents. Like a rookie Ebay seller they assumed that a bundle was worth a huge amount of money. The August patent auction's were extended 3 times as Kodak learned that the patent bundles did not command as much money. ie the WSJ hinted only 1/10 what they expected. Thus last Friday they dropped the patent auctions.</p>

<p>The creditors who loaned Kodak recently are no dummies. They want HARD cash and not some lame patent licensing company. They are tired of Perez's constant failures and excuses. Since Perez came on board the company has dropped in value by 100 times. </p>

<p>Recently the CFO was replaced by an outsider. ie a tough person that is an expert on Bankruptcy and liquidation. On the finance discussion boards the topic of chapter 7 liquidation has increased since the recent patent auction failure.</p>

<p>Perez the CEO should have been canned for cause long ago. He is an HP guy who dreamed that all of us would be buying Kodak inkjet ink and this would replace film as their profit center.</p>

<p>Perez got the crowned the worst CEO of 2011 for a reason.</p>

<p>The creditors want their money back in actual hard cash. Thus Kodak did the dog and pony show that their patents up for sale were worth 2 to 3 Billion. Since they did not get what they wanted they are back-peddling and exploring other ways to raise cash. Thus Kodak has flip flopped SEVERAL TIMES in the last 2 months as to whether the film division is up for sale. The bankruptcy court has the creditors asking for the plan to get them repaid.</p>

<p>*****If you think that the Kodak film divisionis a super secure thing consider this:</p>

<p>Kodak stock is about 20 cents a share.</p>

<p>Kodak stock got de-listed from the NYSE and now is on the pink sheets.</p>

<p>Kodak stock is not margin-able since rated as pure junk.</p>

<p>Kodak bonds are in the sub dollar range and rated as junk ie super risky</p>

<p>Kodak's total market cap is only 50 to 60 million. </p>

<p>Kodaks market cap has dropped in half since January when the got the short term loans</p>

<p>Kodak has about 1 to 2 billion more in debts than assets.</p>

<p>Kodak is spending more than it makes</p>

<p>Kodak is in chapter 11 Bankruptcy</p>

<p>Kodak has the worst CEO of 2011 as the captain of the ship and he sees film as not in Kodak's future.</p>

<p>The profits of the Kodak film division have be reinvested in dumb poor projects of the last decade or two. These pet projects have been marginal or negative in rate of return. The sugar daddy cash flow of the film division peaked long and ago and are drying up. The spoiled rotten Kodak upper management thus has wasted all this capital and the company is now in chapter 11 bankruptcy.</p>

<p><br />Perez is like Jethro who has got the Hillbillies in a bankruptcy. Jethro wants to be the leader in inkjet and the declining oil well (FILM) is up for sale to pay for Jethro/Perez's gambling habit of poor investments.<br>

<br /> The creditors like Citibank want their money back in hard cash. They expect payment and will do what is required to extract the value from Kodak. It really does not matter if they get the cash from Patents, the film division or have a fund raiser with Perez on a dunking machine.</p>

<p>Kodak would not be in chapter 11 bankruptcy if the management did not reinvest the film divisions profits in poor investments.</p>

<p> </p>

[john_shriver]

<p>The vaguely bright light for Kodak's film division is that the movie industry wants it to stay around until 2015. They need Eastman ECP film for release prints. So that will keep that factory running until then. Consumer film is also made in that same line, and can be made at a profit right now.<br>

But you can bet that the movie industry will accelerate the push for movie theaters to switch to digital projection, using 2015 as a deadline. (3D projection has been the wedge they've used to spearhead that process.) Without that Eastman ECP volume, Kodak's amazing automated film production line is 100 times larger than what is needed. So after 2015, Kodak's film line will be a white elephant.<br>

Of course, Kodak would probably rather drown than license their color film know-how to Ilford as the sink ships. They'll try and license digital photography patents, but they are too emotionally attached to the film ones to license them. It would be really nice if they could sell the pilot run color waterfall film coater to Ilford, as Ilford has the smarts to make fine color films, but Ilford can't coat enough layers in one pass on the equipment they have. But the insane monopoly/secrecy mindset that prevails at Kodak film division will probably result in them scrapping the coater for the $5000 it will fetch as scrap metal, rather than sell it to Ilford for much more money.</p>

[jim_eckberg]

<p>The trajectory is not upward for film. It's in the same mix as vinyl records, vacuum tube radios, manual typewriters, dot-matrix printers, space shuttles and other older technologies. These do continue to be used to some small degree (well, not the shuttles), but their prominence has clearly passed. Those things were all wonderful in their day, but times change.</p>

<p>All that being said, it's a good time to go out and shoot some film using our vintage MF equipment. The infra-structure - what there is of it - remains active enough to process what you expose. Some increased urgency has occurred with Kodak's free-fall into bankruptcy and its recent decision to kill the consumer film division. (Movie film is not still film's savior; they still shoot film stock for now, but distribution to theaters is quickly becoming digital projection using internet/satellite transfer. As for Fuji to the rescue, I doubt if they want to be the last one out to close the door.)</p>

<p>I'm saying the clock really, truly is running now; so go out and shoot more. I will. For too long my collection has been shelf-bound. I think there's about a year, maybe two, where I can readily get film and use it. After that - not so sure at all. So I'm loading up and getting out to expose some film while it's reasonable to do so. I think all of you should do so as well. Open up those freezers and let some light in.</p>

<p>Now where did I put that old Minolta Autometer?</p>

<p> </p>

[tony_lockerbie]

<p>Film is still readily available here and shows no sign of going away just yet. Kodak's film department was actually making a profit, in fact the only bright spot in the whole EK disaster.<br>

No one will overly miss colour negative film as digital will produce all those happy snaps just as well, but B&W has still got a solid following with those that make their own prints.<br>

Of course there is still Fuji and Ilford in B&W, and Ilford is going great guns. Their business will only improve with the demise(?) of Kodak, so there is still a bright lining to those clouds.<br>

Don't write us off just yet, there is still plenty of life left in the old girl!</p>

[donnie_strickland]

<p>As others have said, it's old news, which has been hashed and rehashed on photo.net.</p>

<p>Film will be around in some form for a while yet.</p>

[maciek_stankiewicz]

<p>Jim Eckberg mentioned vinyl records, vacuum tube radios, manual typewriters... He may be right, most of people are thinking about it as a junk or just a part of 20th century memories...<br /> Guess what, intelligent people who are digging deeper, use common sense and willing to try brand new $500 valve tube amp know that it's far superior to some freshly made junk from China... The same is with Vinyl records with all the wonderful new cartridge technologies... sound is so much better...<br /> ...The same is with shooting on film... Most people (shopping for a camera today) never used good film SLR or Yashica 35, so they think it's a crap... <strong>If film and film cameras would be promoted together with digital stuff</strong> <strong>in magazines like "National Geographic" or "Time" it would still have the strong position as an alternative medium...</strong><br /> Of course we all here on Photo.net forum know about it, it's nothing new, it's just how I see it...</p>

[maciek_stankiewicz]

<p>...I just bought beautiful Rollei 35 and hoping to use it for a Long time...</p><div></div>

[allancobb]

<p>Even if Kodak were to stop marketing film, a quick look on Freestyle's website would show that Kodak products are quite the minority anyway, completely surrounded by Efke, Rollei, Adox, Ilford, Foma, Arista and Fuji film products. It seems at least on the surface the trajectory is actually increasing as far as the number of film (and paper) choices available now, especially in the black and white realm. No need to hoard film yet as far as I can tell!</p>

[jon_b.1]

<p>Efke/Rollei/Adox have already ceased film and paper production. The announcement is on Freestyle's homepage. This might not be significant to you, unless you shoot 127 format, as they were the last ones still making the stuff. Now's the time to hoard THAT film. I believe Efke was the last company still making 3X4 sheet film as well. In the past few years we've seen the end of 126, 110, and now 127 formats. Minox is not currently making their 8X11 film, although they claim on their website that they plan to resume production when they can find a supplier. Polaroid is dead. (Yes, some wealthy enthusiasts are re-making films for the Polaroid cameras, but the product is horrible). Kodachrome and Ektachrome are gone, and it's very difficult, even in a big city, to find E6 or B&W processing. Yes, the end of film is nigh. It won't be this year, or even next, but it will end sometime. In the meantime, continue to buy fresh film to keep the demand present, shoot lots of pictures, and hope for the best.</p>

[tom_cheshire]

<p>The Lomo guys just reintroduced 110 film in color (tiger) and black/white (orca).</p>

[igord]

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=4113474">Jim Eckberg</a> "Now where did I put that old Minolta Autometer?"<br>

I have been looking for my gossen meter for a week, I haven't found it, tomorrow I will work with bw negative ;)</p>

[michael_kay1]

<p>Fuji have already said that they think film production (at Fuji) will be safe for 3 to 4 years (whilst acknowledging that it could be longer or shorter than this), but this is their present estimate. IF Kodak stop making film, sales of Fuji film should logically increase which would secure production for longer. Unless I am mistaken, Agfa have also recently restarted production of some of their slide films. Both Kodak and Fuji tell us that film production is presently profitable. Ilford really only make film (and chemicals/paper to develop/print it), so they won't stop until they absolutely have to, as they wish to keep their business viable.<br>

The important thing is that we must carry on using it and buying it or they will stop won't they?<br>

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2170020/fujifilm-hikes-prices-photographic-films</p>

 

[yuri_yupiter3]

<p>The Kodak still and movie film division is a profitable unit but declining.<br>

<br /> This unit allowed Kodaks management gobs of raw cash to reinvest in bad projects for 2 decades</p>

<p>As of August 23rd it is being placed up for sale. If it is sold the buyer will still make film. The new buyer might trim the product lines as volumes drop.</p>

<p>The recent patent auction of August was a failure. Kodak delayed the deadline four times and killed the auctions about a week ago. Now they want to form a licensing company to license the patents.</p>

<p>Kodaks future must mean very little to most on this board.</p>

<p>The bulk of discussion seems to be about the election and middle east issues. Maybe few use film anymore or are not aware that Kodak is in Bankruptcy and in dire straights selling off assets to survive.</p>

<p>Kodak has been burning through cash faster than it rakes it in. Thus they are in chapter 11 Bankruptcy since January 2011.</p>

<p>One year ago Kodak cheerleaders said selling some patents would bring in 3 Billion and prevent a bankruptcy.. Now Kodak is in bankruptcy since it cannot pay all its bills to creditors.</p>

<p>Thus the 2012 long summer of hype resulted in the famed Kodak patent auctions that were a bust. Since short of cash they are putting the film units up for sale to raise cash.</p>

<p>The captain of Kodak Perez COULD HAVE abandoned all the low and negative projects and just focus on the profitable declining film unit. Like many a bad manager he has taken good profits from one unit and reinvested it into stuff that has a poor return. Buffet mentions this is common in a poorly run business. Perez is Jethro taking the film/oil profits and reinvesting it in bad projects. Thus in bankruptcy Kodak/ Hillbillies have the declining oil well up for sale to repay creditors.</p>

<p>Kodak is NOW not free to carry on for years with a negative cash flow and feeding off the declining profitable film unit. Kodak is now in bankruptcy thus the creditors and bankruptcy court have a say in the drunken foolish burning of cash.</p>

<p>SEE "Is the management rational with its capital?"</p>

<p>Kodak has done (1) with the film units massive profits for the last two decades:</p>

<p>"A company that provides average or below-average investment returns but generates cash in excess of its needs has three options: (1) It can ignore the problem and continue to reinvest at below average rates,"</p>

<p>http://www.refresher.com/!buffett2.html</p>

<p>Kodak is not a Buffet investment. Each CEO has reinvested the massive film units profits into a bunch of dumb poor projects,</p>

<p>Now the oil well (film) has a lower output and the play money to throw away on dumb projects has collapsed,</p>

<p>Thus Kodak is in Bankruptcy and the film unit is up for sale to feed managements dream of roaring into a non film based Kodak that takes the world over in inkjet and printing ! :)</p>

<p>The film unit will survive in some form but the new owners will probably chainsaw more than Kodak did. ie think a decline in products sold.</p>

<p>Before the patent auction deadlines in August there was great hype that the patents would fetch 3 Billion. One investor who has over a million shares was preaching that they are worth 12 Billion and Kodak is low hanging fruit worth a massive amount.</p>

<p>I wonder who really would actually want to buy the Kodak film unit at all and what are the toxic assets of Building 38 etc.</p>

<p>There are so many unknowns now in the Kodak bankruptcy with the patent auctions being halted. Kodak has flip flopped on whether the film unit was going to be sold too.</p>

<p>It sure really does not look certain with Kodak at all.</p>

<p>We all might want for Kodak to not be in this situation and still make film for another 113 years. <br /> The reality is Kodak is in the emergency room and in trouble deep trouble,</p>

<p> </p>

[Troll]

<p>Actually, it's the Movie Industry that had supported the production of silver based materials, and they're virtually converting to digital in the next couple of years.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Actually, it's the Movie Industry that had supported the production of silver based materials, and they're virtually converting to digital in the next couple of years.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

someone should inform Ilford!</p>

[rino_juan]

<p>I love the XP2 super. <br>

Ilford, don't stop to produce it!!!!<br>

Will buy another film SRL to use with the nex 3 and minolta xg9.</p>

[phillip_lea]

<p>I live in Portland, Oregon, which despite the buzz is really quite a small town. There are <em>at least</em> 3 good places off the top of my head to get E-6 done. I'm only talking places I will drive to; I have not really looked for all possible labs. Is it really that bad elsewhere?</p>