Leica Repair Problem

[Two23]

<p>Back in July I bought a nice little Leica IIIc with Elmar 5cm and multiview finder (VIOOH?) Camera needed some slow shutter work & RF CLA, lens needed CLA and repair to the little knob, and the viewfinder needed internal cleaning. I sent these off to Key Camera Service in Longmont, CO at the end of July. Projected completion was the end of August or just after Labor Day. I still don't have the camera etc. back, after 9 weeks. (To be fair, I'll add they were closed for a two week vacation.) I called two weeks ago and was told my camera would be next in line. I called again last week and was told it was up next and he'd work extra hours to get it done and call me. We're coming up on a week again on that this Friday.</p>

<p>I'm starting to run out of patience as this is my first Leica and I really am looking forward to using it. It's the only 35mm I own (also shoot Rolleiflex and Bessa RF 6x9.) SO, I guess I am asking if I've allowed enough time for this sort of thing, or is this about average? I've been polite on the phone and think I've been fair, but this seems to be taking twice as long as I was oriiginally told. I'm considering calling again Saturday, and if it's not done asking that it just be returned. I'd have to find another repair shop and that would likely take at least another month, but I just don't seem to be getting anywhere as it is. I'm also considering just buying another IIIc and forgetting about it. What would you do? Hopefully the guy hasn't sold or lost it or something.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

[SCL]

<p>That kind of runaround is really frustrating, and inexcusable. After a couple of similar experiences I settled on having any Leica work done by DAG or Sherry Krauter. At least I knew the work would be done properly and usually if there were delays, I was notified. In your case, I'd ask to speak to the manager or business owner and tell him of your frustration, and perhaps ask for some sort of discount.</p>

[Rob F.]

<p>I'm not familiar with Key Camera Service, but they are not on short list of top Leica service shops. When you finally run out of patience, consider Youxin Ye in Boston. He has a good reputation and is popular for doing economical quality work. Or if you prefer to keep the work in Colorado, try John van Stelten at Focal Point in Louisville, CO. Also, I have had three IIIcs overhauled by John Maddox in South Carolina. I've been happy with his work.</p>

[mukul_dube]

<p>Kent, give a little time. The "he'd work extra hours" suggests that Key Camera is a one-man show. Some individuals habitually take much longer than they say they will, and nothing can be done about that: but a lone repair person can also have real reasons for slowing down. Your expression of fear that your camera might be gone could be seen as maligning the man unfairly. You might consider forwarding a link to this thread to Key Camera. Most people like their reputations to be clean.</p>

[steve_levine]

<p>FYI, Sherry at Golden Touch hasn't worked on LTM cameras for several years.</p>

[Two23]

<p>Yes, it's a one man shop. I was being a bit sarcastic when I wondered if he'd sold the camera or something. I think I'll call again on Saturday morning and continue to be polite, but it it's still not done by the middle of the month, I think I"ll ask for it to be returned and then send it off to someplace else. I live in South Dakota and have no reason to favor a place in Colorado. I also have a 1937 Bessa RF 6x9 that needs adjusting and a 1951 Rolleiflex that needs work on the shutter linkage. I'll be sending those to someplace else I think. </p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

[mukul_dube]

<p>I'd recommend firmness with a touch of anger. Blunt, no nonsense accepted.</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>DAG does great work, but you can wind up waiting a long time for him to finish as well. This is just par for the course with repairs of mechanical cameras.</p>

[User_4754088]

<p>And it's not just local. I have a iiif that I wanted gone over, and for a time Leica in Solms was doing rebuilds on certain old cameras, one model at at time, usually with a three or four month window to get it in. Was lucky, when I inquired, they were still accepting iiif models. Sent mine in with the promise that it would be back in "about six weeks". Took them over three months. And they didn't do everything they promised to do, and that I paid for. And they reassembled the camera wrong. This was Leica in Solms. Quite frustrating.</p>

<p>The one person whom I completely trust to work on any older Leica is Don at DAG. He may take extra time, but his work is really excellent.</p>

<p>Best,<br>

-Tim</p>

[m._howard_edwards]

<p>Another vote for Youxin Ye!</p>

[philip_wilson]

Old cameras are like old cars. Most of the experts are old as well. This generally means that repairs take a long time.

The advantage is usually that they have lots of experience on the body in question so you end up with the right result. I

don't know your repairer but you should ask about his experience. If he has deep experience but is getting on a bit these

delays are to be expected ( try an engine builder with failing health if you want real frustration). Obviously this forum is a

great place to seek recommendations

[Two23]

<p>The guy actually doing the repairs was trained by Leica in 1965, and works a few days a week.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

[mukul_dube]

<p>If that is so, my prediction is that further patience will be well rewarded.</p>

<p>I once forced a repair person to take up my camera, which had sat with him for weeks, by sending him a small bottle of booze for which I had prepared a label which read SPEED OIL. Quite a pretty label it was.</p>

[yuri_yupiter3]

<p>Look for more delays as more repair folks retire or die off.</p>

<p>The decades old long term tend is longer times to repair LTM stuff and a lessor group of repair places who deal with LTM stuff.</p>

<p>You have a 50 year old camera that even some Leica experts no longer work on. You want a timely service. The trend is this type of service is dying off thus the delays will be longer.</p>

<p>What is in inexcusable is thinking that this declining super specialized business is like McDonalds and you have many other places if McDonalds is slow that day. The number of places that repair LTM is way less than decades ago. A major LTM repair was often 3 to 8 weeks back 40 years ago. Now the group of repair folks is radically less. The age of these repair folks is way way higher. Folks are dumber and want instant service and constant updating and emails. The "overhead" of handholding per repair is WAY higher than eons ago. Before the LTM rebirth of the 1990's due to the internet and new LTM clones, many repair shops sold off their LTM parts to other shops when their LTM guy retired.</p>

<p>Photographers really have poor power hand in pressuring repair folks to fix old obsolete stuff when the number of repair folks is declining, older and with poorer eyes. You have a poor poker hand and whining is not going to make other repair folks pop up and learn LTM. Repair work is a declining profession in cameras. Photographers have less knowledge and respect for repair folks and somehow think if they complain than the repair chap will work overtime to fix their obsolete camera, LTM stuff hit a rock bottom about 40 to 42 years ago. A IIIc body sold used for 25 to 29 bucks at NYC dealers. It was cheaper then to buy another used IIIc then have its shutter repaired.</p>

<p>There was this old chap in north west Indiana that 16 years ago worked on Leica LTM and Kodak Ektra. His time to repair cameras took longer and longer. His work was excellent. He finally threw in the towel and closed since it was no longer any fun or rewarding. ie his time in explaining to whiners about delivery times went up radically. He told me he spent more time on the phone answering folks questions than actually doing a repair. He had all the Ektra shutter cloths and Ektra parts and finally closed since folks got nasty when he could not repair as fast as a McDonalds drive thru.</p>

<p>In some non camera old obsolete items I repair I decline even taking in new work when swamped or when the customer wants instant service. These folks are not worth the trouble of all the hand holding, explaining or why their item has stuck screws. One in rarer times gets a tiny screw that is stuck and one then places heat, PB nut blaster or Kroil to try to get it removed. The lay whiner customers want instant service on 40 to 50 year old stuff that has corroded stuck screws due to here Katrinas salt exposure or salt vapor that basically makes the tiny screws begging to break off. To most today a repair profession is not a respected job anymore. If you want to deal with gobs of whining lay customers get into repair of obsolete old stuff! :)<br>

<br>

A serious issue is the usage of film cameras is rapidly declining and repair work involves dealing with folks with shorter fuses. Thus it is not a profession to get into at all. With Leica user it is worse. A Leica user will see a tiny speck of dust in a lens and think it radically ruin the image. Dealing with Leica folks about repairs involves dealing with their concerns about looks more than actual function. Some folks will never be pleased with the repairs is what the old Indiana repair guy told me. </p>

<p>It is a complex problem. The number of still camera repair folks is declining and so is the time customers want a repair done. The overhead in dealing with whining customers is way higher than decades ago. Thus with the usage of film radically less than a decade ago many Leicas become collector items that see little usage. Often the stuff really just needs some usage instead of a CLA.</p>

<p>Mukul's comment of "I'd recommend firmness with a touch of anger. Blunt, no nonsense accepted." is rather common when hearing customers who want instant service on obsolete stuff. Dealing with this stuff tires older repair folks and often they just stop the repairs on that item. ie it is not worth the abusive comments or constant updating of the status on their corroded mess. Repair work is no longer a rewarding profession on obsolete items. What you do is radically jack up your rates to cull out the McDonalds type customer who demands quick service on their horrible item that last got serviced when Johnson was President. This is done on old car repairs, you cater to folks who have money and turn down the instant repair type customer.</p>

<p>A trend is many customers cannot explain anymore what is wrong with their item to be "fixed". It is quite common to not find any issues and the customer did not know how to use the item. This trend has grown radically.</p>

<p>45 years go TV and Camera repair were professions that had schools and actual study courses to learn the trade. Today most TV's and average Joes camera that break are just thrown out. Ask yourself why would a young person want to learn old camera repair when the trade is about dead and the customers are way more abusive than eons ago. Some new folks will keep repairs going but do not bet that repair times will drop or get any cheaper. </p>

<p> </p>

[christopher_a._junker1]

<p>Yuri's comments apply as well to other restoration or repair efforts. How many people or firms exist that still can rebuild a Duesenberg or Miller 91 engine? Or rebuild a wooden canoe? How about a high quality 8 day movement tall case clock? As for Leica's repair service, I had Rockleigh do a IIIf long ago. Back then they didn't have a new rangefinder mirror in their parts stock so the IIIf was repaired and is pristine without a good mirror. Work done by Sherry Krauter goes beyond just a CLA. As I've mentioned before on the Forum, she is probably the best at rebuilding and repairing the Leica CL bodies. I did hear that she is no longer doing LTM bodies, but I have not recently spoken to her to confirm this. If you think Leica repairs are a problem, give some thought on a rebuild of a Contax. <br>

Repairing the LTM bodies is again reaching the point of no economic value. Unless the LTM body has high end value due to immaculate appearance condition, the repair cost may be equal to the value of a functioning version. This is especially true if parts or a new shutter are needed. As for delay time for the repair, I don't mind waiting in line and I'm not going to complain if my IIIc time stretches out.<br>

Repair firms or people sho do this work are those mentioned and even though it is going to be a three-four month wait, Gus Lazzari is willing to take on a IIIc. I've also heard that Essex Camera on the east coast will do Leica repairs. As for lenses, I had John van Stelten rebuild a beat up Summarit which needed everything done to make it usable. I had to agree that even if the front element responded well to the polishing out of the scratches, he would not guarantee that the lens heating needed for element coating would not result in a cracked and useless lens. I was lucky and the lens is back, intact and giving as good an image as can be expected from a 60 year old lens.</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>I completely agree with Yuri and my approach to old camera repairs is like my approach to old car work. Find someone you like and trust who has the expertise (as you seem to have done Kent). Then work with them and allow for all the problems, delays and issues that are likely to crop up. When you do get the job done it is usually done very well and I have found (especially with cars) that their expertise gives a better result for less money than taking it to someone who meets deadlines but really doesn't have the expertise or the sympathy / desire needed to get the best result.</p>

[Two23]

<p>Well, hold on here. I have been collecting & using for only a year and half now and have no previous experience to go on regarding vintage repairs. The guy told me it he could do it in a month, and I gave him about twice that before calling. And, I've stayed polite. (I'm from the Midwest after all.) What I was asking was if this was normal, and what I should do at this point. As for fewer & fewer repairmen, that's true, but there's also dramatically fewer people using a camera made in 1942! You aren't comparing apples to apples here.</p>

<p>Here's what I'm considering doing. I bought the IIIc because I specifically wanted a 40s vintage camera and set of lenses. I actually shoot this kind of stuff regularly! I think I'll buy a IIIf for about $200 somewhere and use that until the IIIc shows up. While those are 1950s, I am interested in having a Leica with flash sync. I shoot at night a lot. I just bought a Rolleiflash for my 1951 Rolleiflex and a stash of bulbs. It works! I'd like to try bulbs on a Leica IIIf too, but I'll start another thread.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

 

[Two23]

<p>I called up the place this morning to see how things were coming, to see if maybe I'd be ahead to buy a second Leica while the IIIc is in the shop. I was told mine was all apart on the bench and should be done in a couple of days. I think the guy was probably telling the truth. So, maybe I better order some film from Freestyle today!<br>

Kent in SD</p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<blockquote>

<p>"He told me he spent more time on the phone answering folks questions than actually doing a repair"<br>

<em><strong>Yuri Yupiter3</strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I do enjoy speaking to customers and certainly love what I do; but updates are tough, especially when from the start you asked the customer to be patient. It seems that us <strong>"quality is job one"</strong> repair persons have trouble giving accurate ETA's. Yuri, you made some good points, and thank you for being one of those that understand...</p>

[Alex_Es]

<p>I can understand your frustration. If this is a one man operation the long wait is nothing unusual. Do keep in touch with the repair person. You might inquire about his health. That can also be a factor in the delay.</p>