pensacolaphoto Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 Hi, I finally have recived the camera, and maybe one of you can assist me in figuring out what type of Leica copy I have purchased. The camera is "rough" (not a well made as an M3) but very clean. It has a lens that states "Leitz Elmar 1:3,5 F=50mm" with aperture markings 3, 4.5, 6.3, ..., 16 on the fron of the lens. I have two pics of the Leica clone for you to inspect. The top of the camera gives serial number 210619 whereas the back of the camera gives serial number 454229. It is supposed to be a Leica D.R.P. Ernst Leitz Wetzlar :-) Shutter speeds are : Z 20 30 40 60 100 200 500. Any clues ? Thanks for your input. Raid<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam_lang1 Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 Fed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 11, 2002 Author Share Posted December 11, 2002 Hi, I own a Fed, but the Fed cameras are labeled FED. This one is a LEITZ imposter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas_green1 Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 It's a Leica II clone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 11, 2002 Author Share Posted December 11, 2002 Hi, Is it worth anything at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas_green1 Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 Well, it's worth ALOT less than a real Leica II. It's basically a Russian Zorki with fraudulent engraving. A Zorki without the counterfeiting sells for $15-25 on ebay. But I'm sure that someone who thought it was a REAL LEICA might think it was worth much more than $25, but I am certainly not advocating selling it to some poor unsuspecting fool under the guise that it was a genuine Leica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 R.W.; ask the question on this <a href="http://www.beststuff.com/forum/list.php?f=21&collapse=1">board;</a> they are the Russian camera experts at beststuff.com<BR><BR>It is either an early Fed or Zorki; the lens is an Industar 22 or 50; which is a 4 element copy of the Elmar. The lens usually is very good; one of the better made Russian lenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F. Posted December 11, 2002 Share Posted December 11, 2002 "Hi, Is it worth anything at all?" Value is determined by the price the buyer is willing to pay. It was worth it to you. The progression of aperture markings is not typical of early Elmars, which went 3.5, 4.5, 6.3, 9, 12.5, 18. The progression of shutter speeds is faithful to the original model II. It looks gold in the picture. How come? The serial #210619 is for a "Standard" model, not the II. But yours is not a copy of the Standard. I agree, it has to be a II. OTOH, 454229 is for a IIf, and that's not what yours is a copy of, either. They really didn't do their homework! Recommend they not try counterfeiting any US currency. They would get caught in 3 minutes! 'Bye for now . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 11, 2002 Author Share Posted December 11, 2002 Hi, The camera lloks gold because I did not use a flash and my digital camera is rather basic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry_lehrer Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 RW P.T. Barnum was right. Please do not dignify it by calling it a Leica Clone. The word is "counterfeit" (if I spelled it correctly). Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry_lehrer Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 RW You paid $110 for this piece of junk? It was represented on Ebay as a German copy of a Leica. That was fraud. Get your money back. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidjmitchell Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 These copies are readily available in many guises from www.cameramate.com (an Austrian site)@$120. The cameras are essentially Leica 11D copies & come complete with a copy Elmar and leather "Leica" case. Cameramate advertise regularly in the UK publication, "Amateur Photographer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry_lehrer Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 David Somehow I think that the legal staffs that support Mamiya and Heliopanshould sharpen their fangs and claws on that outfit in Austria sellingRussian copies of Leica, if the Leica name is used on the cameras or their advertising. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 12, 2002 Author Share Posted December 12, 2002 I am trying to get my money back from the seller with peaceful means. He stated on ebay the following: " This is a Germany Made Leica Copy camera, Black body with chrome parts, includes orginal Leica lens cap and Leather camera case. Lens is Leitz 1:3.5 F=50, screw mounted Engraving says Leica (DRR) Ernst Leitz Wetzlar and a serial number No210619. Black body is dent free and the original,Chrome mas slightly matted but is scratch free. This is a lovely example of a a camera is circa 1937-1943. THe leather case is in good condition with expected wear a the hinge points, some marks on the back but otherwise in sound solid condition. Nothing wrong with the strap either. I am also selling a book on Lieca copies for all those who are interested." The camera is a piece of junk. The lens cap is not an original Leica cap, and the camera was most likely produced in the Soviet Union. I want my money back! $110 + shipping + exchange fee by paypal for they exchange rates. Raid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 12, 2002 Author Share Posted December 12, 2002 Hi David, You are right about the website with Leica copies/clones/. My camers lists for $120. That's what I paid on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 12, 2002 Author Share Posted December 12, 2002 Hi, I agree with Jerry in that the ebay ad was a fraud. It stated that this is a German Leica copy, and I came to this forum to ask questions about German copies of Leica cameras. How do I go about getting my money back? I lost @120 or so due to the exchange (US$--> UK Pounds), plus shipping. The camera is not a camera to keep or sell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 Raid ; these "Leica copies" have been around for along time. Before the internet and even today several of the "good" New York City camera stores have sold these mail order. I have been on Ebay for 5 years; and have seen these things since day one. The Ebay adverts says it is a copy; and not an original Leica camera. Im not sure what basis you could claim; if the advert clearly says "a copy". Other items are sold at stores, auctions, Ebay that are "copies" this includes auto hubcaps, old maps, survey transits, VHS tapes, CD's, DVD's , old car parts........In auto stuff; a door handle for a 1965 Mustang might be NOS for New Old Stock; (built by Ford but never sold) ...Or a reproduction or copy; which is not a genuine Ford part; but a copy; which maybe junk or great....<BR><BR>Most all the Leica Copies on Ebay are real flashy; with gold; weird military stuff; red leather; ie Elvis style.....The poor Russian old craftsman create these "gems"; to help survive with NIL retirement funds. <BR><BR>Im not sure if ypu will get your money back; did you think this was a real Leica? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 Here is what the Russian 4 element lens looks like wide open @F3.5:<BR><bR> <IMG SRC="http://www.ezshots.com/members/tripods/images/tripods-213.jpg"><BR><BR>Here is a close up of the Industar-50 wide open @F3.5 <IMG SRC="http://www.ezshots.com/members/tripods/images/tripods-210.jpg"><BR><BR>Here is what a brand thous dollar plus new Leica Summicron 50mm F2 @F2 model 11619 in LTM looks like wide open:<BR><BR><IMG SRC="http://www.ezshots.com/members/tripods/images/tripods-209.jpg"><BR><BR>The low cost Industar-50 of mine is second best of all the LTM lenses I have tested wide open. It is a very good sharp lens; and has excellent out of focus qualities. You may want to test you camera before trying to get your money back and dismissing the lens as junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 13, 2002 Author Share Posted December 13, 2002 HI, The seller was very receptive to my complaint, and he told me that he was told that it was a German copy of a Leica, as I did. I never thought that it was a genuine Leica, since the seller stated that he was also selling a book on Leica copies. The main point of difference is the fact that this lens in not German. I will get my money back in an amicable way. Raid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pensacolaphoto Posted December 13, 2002 Author Share Posted December 13, 2002 Hi Kelly, I have a beautiful M3 camera with several Leitz lenses, so I don't need a cheaply made clone. Maybe I should keep the camera, but I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoyin_lee1 Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 <a href="http://www.cameramate.com/cgi-bin/store/store.cgi?&shop=city&cart=6443257x2058&session=3dff8e3c080a50f9&L=eng&P=4002">Gold Leica II (D) Copy</a>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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