Nikon to stop selling Parts, Petition

[leighb]

<blockquote>

<p>"No shoes, no shirt, no service" </p>

</blockquote>

<p>That policy does not constitute "restraint of trade".</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

 

[leighb]

<blockquote>

<p>Otherwise, if the seller cannot provide proof that an item is Nikon US, it is up to your judgement to buy it or not.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Shun,</p>

<p>It's not as simple as that.</p>

<p>I have a large collection of very nice Nikon gear from my deceased father-in-law.</p>

<p>I'm sure he had all the paperwork for that stuff. <br /> I'm equally sure the paperwork was tossed out when the estate was liquidated.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

[james_c1]

<p>There seems to be a gray area on Nikon gray market products. My understanding is that Nikon does NOT repair them. There have been many posts that state such. There is no obtainable information on what serial numbers are Nikon USA or gray market, you have to send the camera in and they will tell you. What if an older cameras no longer has any paper work or reciept? Why must this be so difficult ? If I am wrong in thinking this someone please set me straight.<br>

As far as the Nikon FM10 is concerned have you ever held one its not a nice piece of equipment very cheap and not well made a very basic plastic camera hence the cheap price I have read post with people stating Nikon not accepting warranty issues on this camera.<br>

Again I am not slamming Nikon cameras. Its there customer service contingents and lack of support that I am questioning. If I am going to make another purchase and Nikon is going to make repairs a problem this is not going to make them the camera to consider. Withholding parts for purchasing and turning there backs on gray market cameras does not seem to be an issue with the other big dog. I am familiar with the Nikon system like it and want to stay with it. But this is does not fly well with me and plenty of others have the same opinion.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Folks, please stop suggesting that once Nikon USA stops supplying parts to those small independent repair shops, you will not be able to get your gary-market items fixed.</p>

<p>You can still get them fixed at the larger, authorized repair shops, such as Authorized Photo Service (APS): <a href="http://nikoncamerarepair.com/">http://nikoncamerarepair.com/</a><br>

There are still quite a few of those shops around, but APS is perhaps the most well known and they do a fine job.<br>

In fact, a lot of us never use those small, independent shops anyway. In the rare occasions that my Nikon products require repair, I either send them back to Nikon or to APS.</p>

<p>I have several gray-market lenses and I have absolutely no concerns about getting those fixes, if necessary. The problem here is that both sides of this "parts" debate want you to think otherwise. The small repair shops want you to help convince Nikon to change their policy since that affects those shop's survival. Nikon USA want you to stop buying gray-market products because such products affect Nikon USA's survival.</p>

<p>P.S. As I mentioned in one of those previous threads, it puzzles me why Canon USA is not as hostile to gray-market Canon products. If I were them, I would be. I am hostile to anything that threatens my survival.</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p><em> it puzzles me why Canon USA is not as hostile to gray-market Canon products. If I were them, I would be. I am hostile to anything that threatens my survival.</em></p>

<p>Nikon Japan owns Nikon USA. Nikon USA doesn't have to survive on its own - it sells a huge proportion of Nikon's worldwide supply of products and it'll still be there even if it makes a net loss (which is unlikely) since its owners are making money on every Nikon product sold irrespective of gray or USA import. </p>

<p>What Nikon is doing here is making it difficult for small repair shops to survive and for local small-town photographers to get their gear fixed in a timely manner. People will now have to ship their products for repairs and wait potentially weeks to get it back instead of a repairs overnight or in a few days. Canon will no doubt take full advantage of this and get many new professional photographers as customers who appreciate the availability of options.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Ilkka, I always send my Nikon eqipment to either Nikon or APS for repair because they are trained and are well stock in parts. If one is in a hurry, overnight shipping is common in these days. The local little repair shops cannot afford to stock a large number of parts and mostly don't have the knowledge to fix complex problems, such as the vibration reduction mechanism. Unfortunately for them, the days when cameras were all mechanical so that just about anybody can repair are over.</p>

<p>Nikon USA is making these changes to help themselves, not to hurt themselves. They are not stupid. It is those who are actually hurt by this new policy want you to think that the new policy hurts you so that you would help them to get Nikon to reverse the policy. 2 out of the 3 threads on this topic are started by such people. Everybody is looking out for themselves; that is human nature.</p>

[elliot1]

<p><em>"Can you image , having to send your Nikon DSLR in for a Battery door. It will cost $$$$."</em> <strong>You mean, you know of a service center that will do it for FREE?</strong><br /> <strong><br /></strong><br>

<em>"you have to send the camera in and they will tell you" (referring to USA or Gray) </em> Actually, you can use your phone to give them the serial number over the phone. I did it a few months ago and they were happy to assist me.<br>

<br /> <em><strong><br /></strong>"Nikon's new policy really hurts those small one-man, mom-and-pop type small repair shops"</em> Since other brands do break on occasion, I guess they will have to make a living servicing those and not Nikon.</p>

<p>I have had the need to use Nikon Melville more times than I care to admit. On each occasion, they quickly and properly corrected the issues I had at a very, very fair price (I checked with independent shops on a couple of occasions). On 3 instances, they repaired out of warranty gear at n/c (major repairs that would have cost about $500 each through Nikon). Independents would never have done this.</p>

<p>Nikon can do whatever they want. It is their company. You can do what you want. Nikon is not the only company selling cameras. I think I will stick with Nikon for the moment...</p>

[leighb]

<blockquote>

<p>Nikon USA want you to stop buying gray-market products because such products affect Nikon USA's survival.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No. Nikon wants you to stop buying used equipment.</p>

<p>Yes, you can still get it repaired at exorbitant rates if the independents can't get parts.</p>

<p>The policy is shameful, unethical, downright fraudulent, and probably illegal.</p>

<p>BTW, they can certainly refuse warranty repairs on a gray-market product, but they can't<br>

refuse to repair any product that they made. The fact that it was sold overseas does NOT<br>

mean that it was imported into the USA in contravention of any law or tariff. The current<br>

owner may have purchased it overseas while on vacation. Nothing wrong with that.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

[leighb]

<p>Shun,</p>

<p>Based on many of your previous posts, including product previews and statements regarding<br>

company policy, you seem to have a rather close association with Nikon.</p>

<p>What exactly is the nature of that relationship, and why are you playing cheerleader for them?</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

<p> </p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Leigh, what you are posting is simply flat out wrong information.</p>

<p>Nikon USA has a clear policy that they will not repair gray-market imports, even though you are willing to pay. The definition of gray market is that someone else other than Nikon USA imports the product into the US, for example B&H imports it, and you buy it in the US.</p>

<p>If you go overseas, on vacation or otherwise, and buy something and bring it into the US yourself, it is not gray market, but you need to produce a receipt from overseas. As long as you can do that, Nikon USA will repair it, probably for a fee.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>What exactly is the nature of that relationship, and why are you playing cheerleader for them?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I have no particular relationship with Nikon. They know that I write fair reviews: I praise Nikon products when they are good and I don't hesitate to point out the shortcomings. I think that makes my reviews believeable. As far as I can tell, Nikon USA does not seem to mind my criticism. I think my reviews are better than reviews from those who receive financial payment from Nikon; those people may be famous photographers but have an obvious conflict of interest.</p>

<p>As I posted earlier in this thread, I myself buy gray-market Nikon products when the price is cheap, and I make it very clear that Nikon USA is misleading when they try to convince people that they can't get gray-market products repaired in the US. I am sure Nikon USA is not happy that I point out such facts. Suggesting that I am playing cheerleader is quite far from the truth.</p>

<p>Again, I posted the details on this thread, which I already provided a link earlier: <a href="00BxJs" rel="nofollow">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00BxJs</a></p>

[rossb]

<p>Well I guess I don't know what to think. Everybody has been saying gray market camera's are shut out and now they are in fact allowed to be repaired. Just no warranty. However Nikon does not support small business and I do. We just have to part ways. I was trying to decide between the P7000 and G12 for my son's birthday. Canon gets the sale.</p>

[dan_brown4]

<p>One underlying factor is how complex these cameras and lenses have become. Most of the independent shops must have become incompetent at working on them, and even service manuals and training can't fix that.</p>

<p>There are no legal issues here. Nikon can do whatever it wants to. They don't even have to offer any service and support at all. If you don't like it, go buy another brand.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Ross, it is not that complicated:</p>

<ol>

<li>Nikon USA will not knowingly repair gray-market cameras, even though you are willing to pay for such repair. They make most of their profit from importing Nikon products into the US; gray-market is their competition.</li>

<li>Outside repair services such as APS, which is not part of Nikon (at least not any more), are willing to repair gray-market products (and Nikon USA products) as long as you pay.</li>

</ol>

<p>Those two facts are not changing at all.</p>

<p>The small, mom-and-pop type repair shops used to fall into category 2 above. But I always question their ability to fix the modern, complex cameras anyway, so I don't use them. With Nikon's new policy, they will have difficulty getting parts so that they will fall out of category 2. Therefore, their survival will be in question, and clearly we should not take that lightly.</p>

<p>But unfortunately, that is part of the changing world. In these days large, mail-order firms are highly successful, such as Amazon.com, B&H, etc. while a lot of small local camera stores are now out of business. So are huge bookstore chains such as Borders. Instead of buying hard copy books, people buy electronic books from Amazon and read them on Kindle, iPads, etc. And Apple is suddenly highly profitable again.</p>

<p>It is a changing world. Oh, I already said that before. As usual, changes benefit some people and harm some other people.</p>

 

[rossb]

<p> Thanks Shun, you have made it clear as to how it works. As far as I know I do not have any gray Market gear. I shop local and small business when I can and BHPhoto otherwise. My D200 and some of my lenses were bought from BHPhoto and are not gray market. I have bought used gear also such as my F100 from KEH.com. They did not provide any history with this camera so it could be a gray market camera. Some lenses I own fall into that category.</p>

<p> I send my camera gear to a shop in Portland for servicing when needed. I am sure they will continue to service my F100 unless Nikon topples them due to their new rule. They do service modern camera's very well and Nikon obviously is a huge part of their business. Being a small shop I can see them going under and those people that work there will be out of luck. That is not OK with me.</p>

<p> Basically I will just throw out the D200 when it breaks. The F100 I plan on maintaining using independent repair services if possible. If not then I will buy a Leica M6 and go with that. </p>

<p> It would seem that major corporations such as Nikon, Apple, Kraft, McDonalds, Monsanto etc, etc are going to decide what we buy, what we eat and how we spend our free time. I just boycott with my spending dollars as well as I am able to. My savings is looking good because of it so that is a benefit for sure. </p>

[leighb]

<blockquote>

<p>But I always question their ability to fix the modern, complex cameras anyway, so I don't use them.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>So Shun, tell me...<br /> 1. Are you an electrical engineer?<br /> 2. Have you earned your living designing electronic circuitry and products?<br /> 3. Have you spent a significant amount of time troubleshooting digital electronics?<br /> 4. Are you a Certified Electronic Technician (ISCET)?<br /> 5. Are you a trained camera repair technician?<br /> 6. Have you earned your living repairing cameras?<br /> I can answer Yes to all of those questions and more.</p>

<p>Perhaps I should ask more generally...<br /> Upon what expertise do you rely for passing judgement on repair shop competence?</p>

<p>Your assessment of relative competence between company shops and private shops<br /> is just plain wrong. Private shop techs are much more proficient at troubleshooting.</p>

<p>Company techs have a chart of symptoms for each camera, with a note of which <br /> parts to replace to correct the problem. That's it. No troubleshooting nor any <br /> other skills required, other than how to use a screwdriver.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

[rossb]

<p> I just went to the web site of the camera repair place I use. Advance Camera in Beverton Oregon. They also have a petition to send to Nikon. They said that July 13th is the end of their parts supplies. Also they say that some of the repairs are farmed out to Mexico by Nikon (out sourced repairs).</p>

<p> Anyway I have no doubt that this camera shop is capable of repairing modern equipment quickly, and with a warranty. But without parts it is bad news for them. </p>

<p> I suppose Nikon can do what they want, but so can I. We can make an agreement that they will not sell me anything and I will agree to not buy anything. Now we are in perfect harmony. </p>

 

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>Upon what expertise do you rely for passing judgement on repair shop competence?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I have brought some I thought was fairly simple lens repair to my local shop, and they told me that it has to go back to Nikon, but they could help me ship it. Upon checking with additional repair shops, they reluctantly admit that they have no experties to fix, e.g. VR issues.</p>

<p>Fortunately, my Nikon equipment has been quite reliable, but the few times that I have used Nikon USA repair, everything comes back fine. Their ability to fix things properly generates confidence.</p>

<p>Now it is my turn to ask you a question: how many Nikon repair person and local repair person have you had experience with to make the following judgement?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Private shop techs are much more proficient at troubleshooting.</p>

<p>Company techs have a chart of symptoms for each camera, with a note of which <br />parts to replace to correct the problem. That's it. No troubleshooting nor any <br />other skills required, other than how to use a screwdriver.</p>

</blockquote>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Ross, it sounds like the shop you are dealing with is too small to meet Nikon's guidelines. You are absolutely right that if you are not happy with Nikon, by all means switch to another brand.</p>

<p>However, if Nikon indeed sends some repair work to Mexico, I don't see what the problem is. My last few TVs with Japanese and Korean brand news are all made in Mexico. A lot of Nikon cameras are now made in Thailand instead of Japan, and they are very good. Occasionally Nikon USA cannot fix a problem, they might send that to Japan.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p><em>'Nikon USA has a clear policy that they will not repair gray-market imports, even though you are willing to pay'</em><br /> <em><br /></em><br /> Ignoring warranty work..I understand that...but...errrr..<br /> <em><br /></em>I'm just curious, does this simply mean the 'cash' will go to 'authorised repair shops', not Nikon USA? Does their accountant agree to this kind of cash-flow madness? How much do these 'repair shops' pay for this monopoly on referral repairs?</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm just curious, does this simply mean the 'cash' will go to 'authorised repair shops', not Nikon USA?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, I can keep explaining the same thing over and over.</p>

<p>For Nikon USA, cash is mainly from importing and selling cameras, not from repairing cameras. By projecting the impression that if you buy gray market, you will have no way to repair, they are hoping that they can sell more cameras thru their import. In other words, by rejecting the cash from making gray repairs, Nikon USA is hoping that they can make even more cash from selling cameras.</p>

<p>The tightening of the supply of parts to independent repair shops is part of Nikon USA's effort to discourage people from buying gray.</p>

<p>However, from my point of view, my Nikon cameras are reliable enough that even though I indeed have no way to repair my cameras, I am still willing to buy gray if the saving is sufficient. I currently own 6 different Nikon DSLRs purchased from the last 10 years. Those 6 have had exactly zero repair. But maybe my experience is not typical.</p>

[Robert DeCandido PhD]

<p>Nikon has repaired Grey Market items for me - a 500m F4 AIP lens; a 200mm F4 AF micro...and the repairs have been done in the last couple of years. They took about 7-10 days to do...I had to drive out to Nikon USA on Long Island to get work done.</p>

<p>I much prefer to bring my equipment to Nippon Photo Clinic in NYC (Manhattan). They have been doing repairs on Nikon equipment since the 1960s. They are NOT an authorized Nikon repair shop because it costs too much to have all the equipment Nikon tells them they must have (and inventory of parts). They will repair my Nikon anything in 1-2 maximum.</p>

<p>Nippon Photo Clinic tells me that Nikon USA charges them full price for parts - the owner, who lives on Long Island, stops in at Nikon USA practically every day to pick up parts directly from Nikon. He tells me that Canon charges his repair place a discounted rate for parts - so it costs much less to repair a Canon camera/lens etc.</p>

<p>If Nikon implements this policy, it will drive up repair prices even further - and bring more business to Nikon. Having read through Nikon USA repair horror stories of high prices and sometimes shoddy work done, I want the option of as many third party repair places as possible. They are not only mom and pop places, they can also be staffed by highly trained professionals as in the case of Nippon Photo Clinic in Manhattan.Leigh B. also makes this point again and again.</p>

<p>Reading the posts of others in this thread, I think Leigh B. is hitting home runs - his is the voice of experience and knowledge on this matter.</p>

[rossb]

 

<blockquote>

<p>Ross, it sounds like the shop you are dealing with is too small to meet Nikon's guidelines. You are absolutely right that if you are not happy with Nikon, by all means switch to another brandHowever, if Nikon indeed sends some repair work to Mexico, I don't see what the problem is. My last few TVs with Japanese and Korean brand news are all made in Mexico. A lot of Nikon cameras are now made in Thailand instead of Japan, and they are very good. Occasionally Nikon USA cannot fix a problem, they might send that to Japan.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> I have no problem with sharing some work with our neighbors in Mexico. I just have a problem with shutting out small business and the people that depend on it. I have many things made in other countries as well. We all do, however I try to buy in the US. For instance, Domke camera bags, Tiffen filters, Titleist golf balls, Park bicycle tools, and Kodak film is partly made in the US I guess. Actually most of the reason I shoot film is to buy US products and to support small business such as Bay Photo labs in Santa Cruz. I enjoy the hobby and I spread money around locally. </p>

<p> My camera repair center will still be able to service my F100 most likely. If not I have always wanted a Leica M6 or 7 anyway. I can just switch over to that. At this point in life I no longer run around looking for landscapes or nice photos. I just take pics of the family, our trips and such. The Leica will do that very well. I do like to fool around with long shutter speeds a bit. I like movement in pictures.</p>

 

[leighb]

<blockquote>

<p>Now it is my turn to ask you a question: how many Nikon repair person and local repair person have you had experience with to make the following judgement?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Private shop techs are much more proficient at troubleshooting.<br /> Company techs have a chart of symptoms for each camera, with a note of which <br />parts to replace to correct the problem. That's it. No troubleshooting nor any <br />other skills required, other than how to use a screwdriver.</p>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

<p>Over the 4-5 years that I worked in that field, I was an active member of SPT, including writing articles for the SPT Journal.</p>

<p>During that time I attended most of the two-day repair training seminars that were offered in the Mid-Atlantic area (Pennsylvania through Virginia), about every two months. I got to know a number of technicians, both independent and company-shop varieties, some pretty well. We had long talks at meals and in the evening, since there's nothing else to do at a motel.</p>

<p>My comments about company-shop troubleshooting guides and procedures are based on gripes I heard from several of their techs, given as a reason why they were brushing up their skills on other cameras so they could change jobs and go to work for independents. They were quite unhappy with their current work environment and lack of real repair activities. They were told to open the camera, fix what the book said to fix, and put it back together as fast as possible.</p>

<p>Since I had very substantial expertise in electronic troubleshooting, particularly of digital electronics, I was often called upon to give impromptu presentations to clarify issues in various courses.</p>

<p>I should clarify my previous comment about troubleshooting skills. Many (perhaps most) of the company-shop techs came out of the military, particularly the Navy. Navy ETs are extremely good! This is why they were looking for other jobs... because they were not permitted to use their skills and knowledge, being required to simply follow guidance in the book and do only those repairs dictated by that document.</p>

<p>Hope that answers your question.</p>

<p>- Leigh</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>Over the 4-5 years that I worked in that field</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Leigh, so exactly which years would that be? E.g., 1980's, 1990's?</p>

<p>I find it strange that someone so deep into that field is totally unfamiliar with Nikon's policy with gray-market products and Nikon products purchased outside of the US.</p>

<p>And clearly my experience with small, local repair shops is very different from what you described. The way you used a broad brush to paint every technician into the same category is much to be desired. As usual, some independent repair shops are excellent as Robert DeCandido points out and some not so much. E.g. APS in the Chicago area is highly recommended by members here over many years.</p>