Rock Star Wedding Photog

[green_photog]

<p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150671936852860.415217.507237859&type=3">https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150671936852860.415217.507237859&type=3</a></p>

<p>Just came acrosss this FB post, I'm speechless. You can draw your own conclusion. </p>

[wedding-photography-denver]

<p>Not there?</p>

[cliff_deputy]

<p>I think the photographer was rather gracious, actually. If a customer came back to me after six years, I don't think I would be as polite with the follow-up.<br>

Granted, the pictures suck if the ones shown are representative of the whole lot of images; but the woman strikes me as having learned a thing or two about photography since her wedding and this email is just her being petulant and mugging about how much she knows now. She doesn't even make any actionable request, then she gets madder because he's not... what? Grovelling for forgiveness? What's he supposed to do about now?<br>

I wouldn't hire him or her to do a wedding. I'd be wondering if she would come back in six years because I wasn't thankful enough or her fee isn't what she would charge six years later. Grow up!</p>

 

[cliff_deputy]

<p>I took a look at her website and I'll have to admit she is pretty good. I'll say what she wanted her wedding photographer to say:<br>

Stacey, you are a far better photographer than the guy who shot your own wedding. Now move on.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>I read the FB post (shared by a friend) last night - </p>

<p>My initial reaction was that viewing all of the photos in a single sitting gave me a bad case of Vertigo - seriously - I don't think a single image of his was "level" </p>

<p>In defense of the photographer - I am a firm believer in showing the prospective client what they get with me - if they like it great, if they don't, there are 500 other photographers out there that are probably not booked for their weekend. If they (couple) looked at his work and said "we likey, we want you to shoot our wedding, we know what we're getting" then there should be no surprises and they should accept what they got and be happy. </p>

<p>Looking at their photos - I saw some obvious issues - branches, leaves, a smoking fetish (come on how many photos do you need of a cig. in someone's hand and smoke curling?), some really bad photos on the stairs, and a few from the 2nd shooter showing the primary in the image (did you know you can crop or edit yourself out?). </p>

<p>But then looking at his wedding portfolio - I didn't see anything in her album that is that different than his portfolio. A lot of different shots, weird angles, crops, etc... Again not dissimilar from what he provided to the couple who complained. </p>

<p>Obviously the lady in the photos (who wrote the 2nd e-mail) is a very good wedding photographer. She has a style that is timeless, unlike the photographer who did her wedding, who was very trendy and hip... and also who's work looks really dated now. </p>

<p>As for the length of time - I thought I had misread that at first, but no - it really was 6 years ago. I'm not 100% certain that I would bother to write a letter / e-mail after 6 years... 6 days yes, 6 months - maybe; 6 years - No. </p>

<p>And I'm not certain what response would have made her / him happy. Would a contrite "Yes, looking back on your wedding now that time has passed, I agree - I didn't have a good day" made things any better? You can't offer a reshoot or re-do of their wedding after 6 years. Even a refund would be rather useless after that much time. Based on the apparent fact that he no longer shoots weddings, his response, while not in the "customer is always right camp", may be viewed as appropriate. Is it how I would have responded? Probably not. But I've never had a customer complain 6 years after a shoot either.</p>

<p>I also find it interesting that they (husband and wife) use their experience to educate their prospective clients - don't do what we did - don't hire the "rockstar" photographer who is hip and now because in 6 months you'll be really sorry that you didn't go the timeless classic route.</p>

<p>I guess that there are a couple of old sayings that could apply <br>

"There's a sucker born every minute" and " A fool and his money are soon parted" </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[green_photog]

<p>The reason I posted this is that is there any "truth" in this industry or is it all marketing. The fact that a couple paid him $6K didn't surprise me. But endorsements he got from at least two big time photogs that I know to be excellent made my jaw drop.</p>

<p> </p>

[mike dixon]

Most of my close friends are very-talented musicians. And they'll regularly post links to video of other performers. About 95% of the time, they're links to amazing songs or amazing performances--something to inspire everyone. Very rarely, it'll will be a link to something that's comically bad. In those cases, it's just meant for a laugh. Never any complaining about how unbelievable it is that such people would consider themselves musicians or how sad it is that they would get hired to play music.

 

The interesting thing is that my friends are constantly getter better--their performing improves, their songwriting improves. Is the focus on bad photographers I often see here helping any of you to improve?

[fuccisphotos]

<p>A few links to add here. I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but here's Gary Fong's post that has popped up in relation to this. <br>

http://garyfong1.xanga.com/760307713/to-teach-and-guide-is-the-second-highest-calling-in-life/ I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but I do think teaching is very important. </p>

<p>With regard to the photos posted on facebook, she definitely posted the worst of the bunch. You can see the slideshow showing some better shots here: <a href="http://davidjay.com/slideshows/staceyhugh/" rel="nofollow nofollow" target="_blank">http://davidjay.com/slideshows/staceyhugh/</a><br>

But it goes to a lesson my husband (who is not a pro photographer) taught me. Never give a client a bad image. Why would you do that? The client will only concentrate on that, even if you have other great shots. They will never use a horrible image, so why even give it to them? Always better to give a smaller number of great images, than giving them tons of stuff with mediocre or even just totally unusable shots mixed in with the great ones. It took me a while to learn this lesson, but it really has made a big difference.</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Vail, this fire's already raging.</p>

<p>There's more to this than just the posted images. What started this was the flippant reply to an email expressing disappointment. That preceded a new program David Jay launched. Had the reply been understanding and an attempt to understand the clients feelings, then we wouldn't be seeing this.</p>

<p>Check this out (<a href="http://enticingthelight.com/2012/03/24/missy-mwac-parodys-david-jays-new-internet-infomercial/">Link</a>) to see a great video about all this.</p>

<p>Then the David Jay "Spray and Pray" program for all new photographers was launched. This program wasn't to help the industry or 'unite' photographers but plain and simple, to sell more Showit accounts. The couple made the photos public then. If only to say, be careful who you take your advice from since the person selling you this business model isn't a wedding photographer (he says so himself if you have seen his Twitter comments) but claims to know what he's talking about.</p>

<p>What he's done is hurt all photographers (and more importantly, a couple who might hire people who buy into this dribble) everywhere by completely devaluing what we do, how we do it and the work involved. The couple decided that if you are buying into this cr@p, then you should know that this is his level of experience and quality. Oh and they posted 3 galleries with over 400 photos to show that the product was consistently bad.</p>

<p>Anyone can cherry pick a few images to create a short slideshow that looks OK. The real test is to start at 11AM, shoot till 10PM and deliver a consistently good product the entire time you're working. He delivered just under 3000 shots of which only a small handful were worth printing after some serious PS help. If you look at other galleries from DJ, this is what to expect from him. I've looked and it's a good thing he's not doing weddings anymore.</p>

<p>So the message was, is this the "Rockstar" you want guiding your business or someone real who actually shoots weddings and has the skill to be a mentor.</p>

[fuccisphotos]

<p>Yeah, I went on to find more of those galleries on facebook and the shots were scary. They looked like he had it on P the whole time and the focus points on auto select. </p>

<p>I don't know much about David Jay except that he shot J*'s wedding and helped her get her first solo gig, so I can't comment on him. But Some of what Gary said about Jasmine and Zach and Jody, I felt was a bit uncalled for. If you watched Zach and Jody on creative live, they know their stuff. I've started employing some of the lighting techniques they suggested and it's amazing to see the difference. And Jasmine while never going to photo school, practiced her brains out, and did 2nd shooting. She suggests people 2nd shoot. Yes she's relatable and funny. That is something that helps put people at ease that day and makes the experience nice for them. I don't think she'd ever profess to be the most amazingly skilled photographer ever. She knows what she's good at and has made her business around that.</p>

<p>I will confess that I recently went to J*'s the fix in Boston, and it was a wonderful experience. And yes, barely a word was spoken about photographic technique. More than anything it was her suggesting we all work together more and help each other out more, and be less catty. I think that sounds like a pretty good thing for our industry. I've now made some new photographer friends in the area from it, and that has been great for me.</p>

<p>And while much of what DJ said in his system is scary to know others are following it (namely spray and pray, put it in P), some of it is legit helpful advice. Since I put up a video of me on the job, I have definitely been getting more people who already have a good feeling for my style. It does the job for me of weeding out people who aren't looking for what I do. I have found doing same day slideshows at weddings as amazing marketing tools that the guests and bride and groom love. Remembering to smile is VERY important. Getting lots of info on the family and knowing names of the parents etc can be very helpful. He at least mentions having some backup equipment (although just borrowing is an odd thing to only highlight, but at least it reminds people that they really DO need a back up of some sorts). Think of how many times on here we have to remind newbs to have back up gear.</p>

[lauren_s.]

<p>6 years later and they want him to what, beg for forgiveness? I am surprised that his past weddings were also horrible and yet they paid $6,000 anyway. I'm also very surprised that this is the guy who WOW'ed Jasmine Star enough to book him for her own wedding and then later became her mentor. I think both parties are at fault for what happened. Do I dislike my own wedding photos, and regret hiring the person? Yes. I trusted them so much that I didnt look at their past work...luckily I didnt pay $6,000, and my photos are nowhere near as awful, but they're still not as great as they could have been had I gone with someone else for the same price. I blame myself.</p>

<p>As to the Gary Fong..rant?...I agree completely about teaching and how (real, experienced) knowledge should be spread and shared. However, he was a bit offensive complaining about the "new kids" and how they're just cute talkers who mastered social media. I dont particularly like Jasmine Star, but she is very honest that she had nothing and practiced her butt off to get where she is. She doesnt make it sound like rainbows and kittens. Gary really seems stuck in the past, "this is how things were done and they should never change!!" kind of attitude. Innovation is a reality in all businesses and it's time to get with the social media bandwagon, the lens flares, the photoshop tricks, the "couches in the grass," and realize that's what's popular now...just like bad hair, blue backgrounds, and "everyone look at the camera and smile" were popular back in the 80's. Anyone can go overboard with trends, but simple touches that are liked by your paying customers can go a long way.</p>

 

[personalphotos]

<p>Lauren, you have to look at the timeline though. Jasmine hired him years before she had her business running. At the time, she didn't know an f stop from a pit stop and she freely admits this. I'm quite sure she knows the difference now and only because she learned a bit from him and did some name dropping back then is she still connected to him. It's much more marketing than it is saying he's a good shooter. Until this past week, that worked for both of them. She sold her wedding experience and he sold web sites. Now he's crossed a line to promote himself more, I can't see how these good shooters will endorse this.</p>

<p>Oh I'd keep other photographers out of this criticism but because they are all closely tied to each other (at least in terms of marketing) they will all get tarred with the same brush. If I was Jasimine, I'd remove every reference to DJ, on my site. She's worked hard on marketing herself and learned how to shoot, now he's telling everyone, don't waste your time with learning to shoot! Just go have fun and smile a lot, it's all about the experience, not the photos.</p>

<p>DJ, ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!</p>

<p>I mean look at this logically. DJ's promoting put it on "P" mode, use as little gear as possible so you don't get confused and "Spray and Pray". We all know these are recipes for disaster and it worries me that this is going to create a whole new flood of newbies who feel empowered until they have a bride crying that her photos are terrible and her life has been ruined. It will devalue our work and industry.</p>

<p>For all that Jasmine is trying to do with Fix, this wiped that out entirely. People are so polarized, it's become a storm. Experienced shooters know he's full of BS and only trying to sell more web sites. Newbie's are drinking the Koolaide and defending him. Brides who hire these 'Showiteers' are the ones who will ultimately suffer the fallout with terrible wedding photos.</p>

<p>We both watched Zack and Jody. They had some good stuff on that CL show. They taught technique and learning how to get better shots. DJ just told everyone to stuff that and charge a bundle even if you don't have a clue what you're doing.</p>

[shawn_mertz]

<p>Well We should take this as a reminder great marketing is at least as important as photo skills.</p>

[lauren_s.]

<p>Peter: I completely agree with you. I did say they're both at fault; I forgot to add that I think he is wrong to charge so much for such awful photos. I know Jasmine met him a few years before she got into the photography business. In an interview she says she looked through 68 pages of google results to find the right photographer. She stalked his website and blog. Ultimately she chose him for his "personal connection" to his clients, but she still was a young, fashionable, hip bride-to-be who has gone on to be a fashionable, hip wedding photographer, that I cant imagine her being so overwhelmed by his personality that she ignored the fact that he takes horrible photos. That's why I said I was surprised pretty much by this whole situation.<br /><br /> <br /><br />It's too bad he is selling out his profession. While it's a tragedy that brides are going to be duped, I still think there is some responsibility on the bride's end to make sure they receive quality photos. All it takes is a little look-see through a few recent wedding albums. Like I said, I kick myself for being stupid. I do wish the photographer had educated me a bit about the process, but ultimately it was my fault for hiring them. Right now the big thing is easy access to photography equipment and thus anyone can be a wedding photographer. I predict brides are eventually going to wise up and realize they cant trust their once-in-a-lifetime photos to amateurs, and the word will spread like wildfire.</p>

[green_photog]

<blockquote>

<p>He had an unmistakable charisma and a huge draw with the crowd that came built-in with his looks</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thanks Vail for the Gary Fong link, the above quote struck a cord with me. I've gone to many big name photog's seminars and all of them are good looking middle age guys that even I find attractive. We go to seminars to learn but really there's very little that you can learn to be Tom Cruise like charismatic. These seminars are more Tony Robbins' feel good therapy sessions than learning opportunities.</p>

<p>I have yet to travel to these sessions so that' OK. But for those that spend big money to go destination seminars, is it really worthy it?</p>

<p> </p>

[picturesque]

<p><strong>Moderator Note:</strong> Yes, I am horribly old school. I don't have a facebook account, so I don't know if the reason I can't look at the linked info is due to the fact I don't have an account or the content has been removed. Can someone fill me in?</p>

[fuccisphotos]

I don't know why it wouldn't come up for you Nadine. Just trust that the images are sub par. If people put them up on this

site for critique they would be eaten alive.

[picturesque]

<p>OK, so what happened? I have no clue. I gather that a bride, now photographer, has complained about the images David Jay took at her wedding? And he was not gracious in replying?</p>

<p>The other links, I've seen.</p>

[Ian Taylor]

<p>Lots more fauxtography collected here:<br>

http://youarenotaphotographer.com/</p>

[lauren_s.]

<p>Nadine: Yes, you need a facebook account to view the photos. Some kind of forum discussion about wedding photos spurred them to finally tell David Jay how they felt. So far the husband and wife have posted roughly 400 photos, proving that they are not "cherry-picking" to prove their point. They emailed him 6 years later to tell him how awful the photos are, that the wife cries in disappointment, that now that they are wedding photographers they know better, and basically--without saying it--really want him to admit how awful of a wedding photographer he is. The groom also complains about lack of education from the photographer in how the wedding timeline + photography would work, I think proving the groom's point that David is an unprofessional photographer. <br /><br />David Jay basically responds with "I think they're fine. I think you're just mad I shut down OSP [David's own popular wedding photographer forum?]."</p>

<p>Also: the photos on facebook have horrible horizon tilts (to the extreme!), various body parts cut off in weird places, out of focus, poor lighting, horrible composition, no shots of important events etc etc...it is really bad for a $6,000 price tag. </p>

[picturesque]

<p>Thanks, Lauren.</p>

[memex]

<p>This was just a good promotion of that girl and nothing else... shame on her... I say these photos are bad to the bone...but she wanted that photographer, she was satisfied with photos at begining and now she's spiting on herself also...</p>

<p>OMG 6 years later..........OMG</p>

<p>p.s. sorry for my bad english :)<br />Best regards from Croatia :) </p>

[ronald_smith6]

<p>This is the so-called contemporary wedding photography that today's generation seems to think is "good" but it's garbage in my view: I am glad that I no longer shoot professionally, people"s expectations on what is acceptable have lowered to the toilet.</p>

[memex]

<p>thumbs up for Ronald Smith</p>

[fotografz]

<p>"Is the focus on bad photographers I often see here helping any of you to improve?"<br>

<br /><br>

Bingo! Jeff. <br>

<br /><br>

<br /></p>