chawn_crawley1 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>Well, this is a first for me. I was approached a couple weeks ago by a lady who wanted me to prepare pricing for a bunch of portrait work for a kid's sports league.<br> Long story short, she's asking me to:<br> 1. Prepare a proposal.<br> 2. Present said proposal to their "board" along with every other photog they find. (These "proposals" would all be presented at the same meeting, as I understand.)<br> 3. She stated in an email that "we do use pictures as a fundraiser". I asked her to explain what that meant and her reply was "we normally get a percentage of the portrait sales for the organization".</p> <p>So, maybe I'm just very naive, but this one is new to me. As I'm viewing this, they're essentailly expecting photographers to "bid" for this gig by using kickbacks as a way for their committee to decide who is providing the sweetest deal?!<br> I've never ever read anywhere in books, periodicals, blog, or elsewhere that this is a normal method of doing business in photography. I've done a heap of large group shoots from proms to sports tourneys, etc. but I've never been told that part of bidding a job would include providing some sort of self-imposed percentage to be given back to the very group that is supposedly hiring me to do the job.<br> Granted, I live in a pretty slow area and I wouldn't exactly refer to Upstate NY as a "sophisticated" region of the country, but am I right in feeling like this is the skeeviest method of gaining a photography job one could imagine, or am I truly that inexperienced and this is all status quo?</p> <p>Any perspectives would be appreciated. It's already apparent that the quality of the images isn't important to these people at all, so I'm already turned off to the idea of doing it. But from a purely business point of view, isn't this blatantly shady?</p> <p>Thanks!<br /><br />Chawn </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>This is very common. It's no different than having an event fundraiser where the vendors at the event (say, food vendors or ... photographers) pay a fee to the organizing entity in order to be there. That's their "kickback." They don't call it fundraising for nothing. In your case, you only pay them that fee when you happen to make a sale. That's better than paying to be there, and having slow sales, right?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 it's very simple, photos like the one's youre talking about shooting only need to be as good as they need to be. the market is full of people that can and will shoot them. pricing models are so diverse these days that it's up to each photographer and their client to find a point where they can agree. Putting a project like this one "out-there" as they have done is not uncommon. If i were you I'd go back to the goals of your business and decide from there if this is a project you want. If it is, figure out a way to make it work, if it's not, move on to different pastures. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chawn_crawley1 Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>I'm expecting to pass. I'm not a big shot with a huge ego, but I worked really hard to have a little reutation of my own for doing really nice work for people. <br> This makes me have to compete head-to-head with however desperate the next guy is.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>Just to be clear, Chawn, this isn't about desparation. This is a <em>very common arrangement</em>. Schools, teams, leagues, clubs - all sorts of organizations make these sorts of contracts with vendors. If you charge a lot more than the low-ball guy, even the same percentage of your revenue as his will make the club more money for having you available as a vendor.<br /><br />Think of the money that goes back to the club as you would any other marketing/advertizing expense. It's the price you're paying for exposure to a captive audience of prospective customers. How much would you have to pay in money and time to get in front of that many potential customers under other circumstances?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_shearman1 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>This is standard practice. Many photographers go to groups offering to pay a percentage of the take in return for getting to photograph their members. And it can be very lucrative. The percentage buys you access to a whole bunch of photo clients you would not otherwise have, dumps them into your lap in a situation where they are expected to purchase a photo because everybody else is. It's not a "skeevy" kickback. A kickback is where someone who controls the ability to award a contract demands something in their own pocket in return for spending their organization or business's money with you. That, agreed, is unethical and in many places illegal.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chawn_crawley1 Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>Matt/Craig,<br> Thanks-and I am starting to understand where you are coming from in terms of the ethics of it all.<br> Indeed, I am uncomfortable with it, but that (as I'm considering what you said) could easily be my lack of familiarity with the practice, too. Primarily, people come to me as clients based on the fact that my prices are not horrible and they like the style of work that I perform. "Bidding" just isn't something that I have to do very frequently.<br> Another caveat that gives me pause to all this is that I cannot get them to provide me even the most vague of estimates with regard to the expected headcount. I've done enough of these group-deals where I haul 3/4 ton of equipment to the location only to have 20 out of the 250 parents take part. Add this "service fee" and it again becomes something I wish I never did.<br> I appreciate all the clarification on this, though. Truly.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverhaas Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>Chawn -</p> <p>Not going to comment on the kickback / rebate to the league - others have explained that in great detail - although - If you shoot Tourney's I'm surprised they haven't asked for a cut yet.</p> <p>It is very customary for the league to provide the photographers bidding on the photo service an estimate of the number of kids in the league - even if it is last year's number. For a typical league I figure that 10% aren't going to buy no matter how good the product is. Another 5% in a typical league are there on scholarship (league is funding them) so no sale there either. So you have about a 15% drop right away. </p> <p>Then you need to consider that 20-40% are going to order the lowest priced item you sell. The remainder will spend in proportion to the amount of money they spent on equipment for the sport or income level.</p> <p>And no matter what you do or don't do - you will not make 100% of the parents happy 100% of the time. Someone is always going to not like the way their kid's photo turns out or find fault with the way you run the show. (I've been on both ends of this game)</p> <p>It can be very profitable if you decide to go for it. I've done 2 - 4 leagues each year for the past few years. It's all about the numbers - don't get attached to a league - if you lose one - go get another. Board members change and the league that turned you down this year will be your best friend the next.</p> <p>As for the quality of work - I think the owner of a dance studio that my daughter dances at put it best to a group of parents sitting outside of class one night: "These are intended to be a keepsake of the year, a reminder of the customs, uniforms, outfits... nothing more, nothing less... If you want a customized sitting, and formal portraits, Hire a Pro Photographer like him (Pointing to me) and he'll do it for you for a nice sitting fee. " Again - it's a numbers game - get the kids in out and done in 60 seconds or less.</p> <p>Dave</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDMvW Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>It would definitely be out of line if it were one or more of the organizers <em>personally</em> getting the money. If it's the organization, they probably have some sort of prior experience and a percentage in mind. Normally, such an outfit would have some sort of corporate structure to allow them to take donations, depending on the state, locality, etc. Where actual money is involved, usually there is some kind of oversight, if for no other reason than to protect the organizers themselves.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chawn_crawley1 Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>Here is what I don't understand: <br> -A committee is expecting these contributions (on the order of 20% of total sales, I'm told)<br> -The same committee is the one deciding who will do this work.<br> -But...the parents are the ones shelling out the cash for these pictures.</p> <p>So, doesn't it stand to reason that this "committee" is inherently inclined to do what's in their best interest, even though that is likely to be at the expense of the parents via higher overall prices? I mean, obviously these questions are beginning to leave the areas that I'm responsible for; I'm just trying to understand. <br> And David, no. I've honestly not come across this one yet. It's a first for me, but this sort of thing really doesn't represent a great deal of my work so I'm certainly not surprised.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsfbr Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>Chawn, do you have kids? Every single organization I've ever involved my kids in does this sort of thing one way or another. Every parent knows the deal. It is the same as giving to PBS and getting a tote bag. Really, it isn't unethical.</p> <p>Why don't you tell them what you need to net? They can charge 20% more or 50% more, that is up to them. Frankly, if I'm them, I'm telling the parents that X% of the proceeds from the price of the photos go to the organization - that's a major part of the incentive for most parents to buy your product in this instance.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswms Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 <p>I find it disgusting. If someone wants to hire me they can hire me at the price I charge. If they are fine with the lowest common denominator better for us both if I am not involved. </p> <p>I ran across a modeling agency once that tacked a 'service fee' on everything they played middle man on. Instead of making their money off legitimate models by way of 20% they added 25-50% on the cost of marketing materials- portfolio enlargements, Zed cards- for models who would never work. They did not inform their clients of this practice. I did and did no further work with that agency.</p> <p>If the league or the school or the organization wants to apply a surcharge to my pricing - like PBS for a DVD that you could buy on Amazon for 60% less- that's between them and their members.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 <blockquote> <p>I find it disgusting. If someone wants to hire me they can hire me at the price I charge. If they are fine with the lowest common denominator better for us both if I am not involved.</p> </blockquote> <p><br /><br> OK, so don't apply for a job shooting kids' sports leagues. It's that simple. You don't need to let us know.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 <p>See Jeff above. Have you never worked on a fund-raiser before? </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 <p>Its absolutely common and a good thing. Its how local community sports teams, clubs etc. support their teams. Also, boards, like cities, often invite bid proposals and review them all at one meeting, often with the vendors there. They sometimes invite vendors to pitch their wares. This is nothing unusual and is a normal way things are done in the U.S. What makes you think your proposal should be special? It's not for you, to determine what they want in terms of the quality of the photos. If you think that is an issue, and you want the gig, than pitch how great your work is. But at least find out something about fund-raising before you get start casting aspirations on this groups motives. Try Google. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverhaas Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 <p>The problem, if there is one, is that the league doesn't realize or care if you add the rebate amount to the price that parents are charged for the photos. They care about the money that they get in their general fund for things like scholarships, uniforms, travel, concession stands, bleachers, etc... </p> <p>Could they bump up the fees for league members and make up the revenue? Absolutely. Will they? Absolutely not. Because of the fact that the league fees are mandatory (unless the athlete is on scholarship) they won't bump it up. Since photos are "optional" and there is no requirement to buy them, leagues have no problem demanding a rebate from the photographer, knowing full well that the bottom line price to parents is more. </p> <p>Heck I even give the league the option of setting the markup - From $1 to $5 per item. Let me tell you - more leagues go with the $5.00 then the $1.00. There was 1 exception - a league that had just raised it's fees went with no fund raiser $0.00 markup - because they felt that they were hurting their parents enough. </p> <p>Dave</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_shearman1 Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 <p>"If someone wants to hire me they can hire me at the price I charge."<br />In this situation, they do hire you at the price you charge the same as any other job. If you would normally charge a parent $20 for a picture package, you don't keep charging $20 and give $5 of it to the group. You tell the group you get $20 and if they want to make $5 on each one, then you set the price for the parents at $25. If they want to make $10 you set the parent price at $30. You still get your price either way.<br />If you and/or the group figure $20 is al the market will bear, then you have to decide whether it's worth it to you to accept a lower fee. Depending on the number of kids to be photographed, it can often be worthwhile because of the volume.<br />We're talking team pictures (or was it some other group) here. This is business, not art.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattluther Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 <p>There was some discussion last year here in Finland about this when it was revealed that photographers pay public schools hundreds or even thousands of euros in "arrangement fees" for getting the contract to do the yearl groups and the portraits of the pupils.<br> What it amounted to was a recommendation from the national school authorities that the contracts be awarded on the basis of an open competition and the kickback goes to the schools funds or the PTA. The point where this becomes corruption, in the eyes of the Finnish School authorities, is if the kickbacks go to the people that decide who gets the contract.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daverhaas Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 <p>Mathias - I'm not aware of any league or school that I've dealt with in 6 years where the money goes to anyone or anyplace other than the league's account. </p> <p>I agree 100% that if the money went to those deciding - it would be corruption at best, and racketeering at worst. </p> <p>Dave</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbollinger Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 <p>Non-profit organizations (everything from sports leagues to schools to health care organizations such as Easter Seals) all over the US do this kind of thing all the time to raise money. What surprises me is not the request to tack on a fundraising markup but the naivete of folks who seem to think it is somehow inappropriate. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frolickingbits Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 <p>Not really that shocking of a model, I've done several photo booth events for local charities where I charged $5 for a 4x6 print, and $4 of that was donated back to the charity. I see it as a good way to give back to a cause I believe in without costing me money.<br> However, I approached these organizations with this offer, I have never had a group explicitly ask me for a percentage of sales. And I could see where there could be a conflict of interest. Let's say photographer A offers a $20 8x10 with a 20% donation, and photographer B offers a $30 print with a 25% donation. The latter raises more money for the organization, at the expense of the parents.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn_mertz Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 <p>it is usually a combination of the two.<br> They look for a low price with a large donation percentage. But making 5 dollars profit 500 to 800 in one day adds up to a good day.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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