Secondhand D3 and D700 today.

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Dieter, you're not going to get the high frame rate with EN-EL3e's. High frame capacity, yes, but not high speed. <br>

However, you can try 8 X AA batteries in the grip, that will give you high FPS, but this 'pairing' seems the most troublesome with regard to error messages/shut downs etc.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>However, you can try 8 X AA batteries in the grip, that will give you high FPS, but this 'pairing' seems the most troublesome with regard to error messages/shut downs etc.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I have no problems at all using 8 AA batteries inside my MB-D10. However, since I already have EN-EL4 batteries, I would rather use them. There is no way I would pay for EN-EL4/4a batteries and charger to use them inside an MB-D10.</p>

<p>Another thing to keep in mind is that the D3 was discontinued over two years ago when the D3S was introduced in October, 2009. Some D3 used must have upgraded for the better high-ISO results on the D3S. Technically the D700 is still a current model "in production." Therefore, comparing the used prices is not totally fair. The D3 is really two generations away as the D4 is now replacing the D3S. When the D700's successor is finally announced, I expect the D700's value to drop further in the used market.</p>

<p>Personally, I picked the D700 because it is small and cheaper. With the D3/D3S/D4, you are stuck with the extra weight and extra size all the time. The vertical grip is handy in some occasions but for me, a lot of times I would rather not have it.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Shun, you know these postings better than anyone. I've never heard of an EN-EL4 problem in a MB-D10, but you can't deny <strong><em>some</em></strong> people have had real problems with AA's in genuine MB-D10s?</p>

<p>Yes, we are not comparing apples with apples, just the 2 cameras the OP was asking about.... :-)</p>

<p>All the other points are very true and I'll probably try to pick up a good D700 when the price drops a little, sadly I fear it won't plummit because it is, and will remain, a damn good camera for the money!</p>

<p>Anyone think the 2nd hand price for the D3S will drop very much? I don't.... :-(</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>Dieter, you're not going to get the high frame rate with EN-EL3e's.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I know, that's why I wrote - but apparently not clear enough:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>If you do need the MB-D10 and the EN-El4a - then the D3 is the better choice for you.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Because if you pay about the same amount, you may as well get all the things the D3 offers that the D700 doesn't. Shun points out the caveat though - you can't shrink the D3 down to D700 size. And there is no built-in sensor cleaning in the D3.</p>

<p>Shun, I can't seem to quite follow your logic - the D3 and the D700 have the same sensor and AF module but different specs otherwise - so if the D3 is "two generations old" then so is the D700 - never mind that it is still produced.</p>

<p>Mike, I won't get into speculations about the price drop of the D700 and the D3S - until I know for sure what's Nikon's next offering looks like.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Mike, there are always some people who have problems with any piece of Nikon equipment, the same for Canon. Some of those are real problems; a lot of those are user errors. There are many types of AA batteries and quality and voltage vary. Moreover, you need to select the proper AA type on the camera. All of those complications lead to problems.</p>

<p>When I first bought my D300 and MB-D10, I could not find the BF-3 battery cover to use my EN-EL4 with. So I used AAs inside the MB-D10 for quite a while. As usual, I have no problems with just about any piece of Nikon equipment I buy.</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Dieter, I see where you're going, but I'd never get an MB-D10 for more frames, it's main benefit (to me) is higher frame rate. Carrying a spare EN-El3 in your pocket isn't exactly a hardship. The grip for more capacity is just unnecessary bulk.</p>

<p><em>.....'The En-EL4a isn't necessary to get the<strong> full potential</strong> out of the D700 - two EN-EL3e .....</em></p>

<p>Full potential for the MB-D10 <strong>requires</strong> either 8 x Good AA's or an EN-El4a. ie <strong>not just 2 x EnEl3e's</strong></p>

[pierrearnaud]

<p>Hello Scott,<br>

Not that I want to tilt this thread off topic, but would you mind saying why your are looking into a D700 ? The reason why i am asking is that we discussed equipment issues int the canon forum quite a bit of time ago (you probably don't remember), and you gave me valuable advice back then. So I value your opinion. And I am myself vaguely toying with the idea of getting a D700 when its replacement is out.<br>

Best regards,<br>

Pierre</p>

[elliot1]

<p>There are subtle differences between the two cameras (some listed above) that make one a better value over the other. Which one is better depends on what features you want or need.</p>

<p>In additional to some of the differences listed above, I have read some reports that the D3 has slightly improved/faster AF over the D700. I cannot verify this but can attest the the amazing ultra fast AF of the D3 with AF-S lenses and excellent speed with AF lenses. If AF speed is a major concern of yours, you should probably go with the D3.</p>

<p>If you add the cost of the grip, battery and charger (if you need these), the D3 is a better value cost wise.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>it's main benefit (to me) is higher frame rate</p>

</blockquote>

<p>If that's what one is after, then given similar costs for a used D3 and used D700/MB-D10/EN-EL4a, the D3 is the better buy as it gives you 9fps vs the 8fps of the souped-up D700. But I agree, the <strong>full potential</strong> of a D700 is only reached with a MB-D10 and a EN-EL4a (or a set of AA batteries).<br>

BTW, for me, the main benefit of the grip is the better balance with larger and heavier lenses and the benefits when shooting in portrait orientation - the increase in fps is a nice extra that so far I have not availed myself of.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>But I agree, the <strong>full potential</strong> of a D700 is only reached with a MB-D10 and a EN-EL4a (or a set of AA batteries).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It depends on what you mean by full potential. To me, the main advantage for the D700 is the lighter weight. That is why I rarely attach my MB-D10 on it.</p>

[BernardMiller]

<p>There *are* ways to get the full potential out of the MB-D10 without paying high Nikon prices. The MH-21 appears occasionally on eBay (I got one cheap there) and you don't need the much more expensive MH-22, which doesn't do any more in practice than the much less expensive charger. Plus several reputable sources (including B&H) sell third-party batteries that are the equivalent of the EN-El4a. I recently got everything I needed for just over a hundred bucks--I use it for shooting pro boxing, where the high frame rate is absolutely useful.</p>

<p>There are two other advantages to the D700 that haven't been mentioned yet in this thread: the pop-up flash for one. I don't use it as my key light--it would obviously look pretty crap used that way. But where it *is* useful is to trigger a hand-held speedlight, like the SB-800 I use. I set the speedlight (often with a Westcott Micro Apollo over the end of it) as my key, and the built in flash throws a bit of fill directly forward, which is highly adjustable.</p>

<p>And, if you're using the camera and flash that way and shooting in some place that's pitch dark, like the inside of a club, the built-in autofocus assist light is very valuable, too. I prefer to use it over the speedlight's autofocus assist, even when I'm using it on a remote cord rather than triggering it wirelessly, as it aims at what I am shooting (while the flash, when hand-held, isn't necessarily gonna aim its beams where they'll reflect back to the camera), and it helps me get a better look at my composition in a space with no real ambient lighting.</p>

<p>For those reasons and others cited above--price, ability to configure the camera into a smaller unit, built in sensor cleaning--when I move to full frame from my D300, I'll go for the D700 even if I could afford a D3. I'm just waiting a bit until a D800 or whatever comes out, and then I figure I can find some sweet deals on a D700, which will still be an enormously capable camera.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>Shun, "<strong>full potential</strong>" as defined by Mike: max. fps. And I do realize that the D700/MB-D10 was never sold directly with a En-EL4a - it's an extra (and as you already pointed out requires the purchase of a separate grip cover) that Nikon apparently provided to those who use En-El4a batteries in other bodies. With the tongue firmly planted in cheek, I dare say that all Nikon D700 with MB-D10 were not sold at their fullest potential directly from Nikon (and no, 8x AA don't count, they give you the frame rate but not nearly the capacity of an En-EL4a to the best of my knowledge).</p>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>So Shun, when you do attach it, <strong>why </strong>do you do it? FPS, balance/vert grip or longevity?</p>

[BernardMiller]

<p>Now I haven't actually weighed it, but the MB-D10 with En-El4a seems at least to be a little lighter than with 8 AAs powering it. Anyone know if that is indeed the case? I'd say that's another mark for the En-El4a if true.</p>

<p>And, yeah, I can get a couple of thousand shots with that battery (well, really, a thrid-party equivalent)--I'm fairly certain 8 AAs wouldn't achieve that.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>8 AA batteries should be about twice the weight of the EN-EL4a. With a MB-D10 attached, the gripped D700 actually is larger and heavier than the D3.</p>

[eric_arnold]

<blockquote>

<p>"I estimated $3,000 for the body and $1,000 for the lens."</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />the 24-70 AF-S costs between $1700 and $1900 new. typically gold ring nikkors hold their value very well, losing at most 20-25% of their value in the used market unless they have been damaged. KEH has one in EX+ for $1669, for instance. No way you're getting one of those for $1000.</p>

<p>So...that means the D3 the OP is considering is being sold at under market value. i would probably check the actuation count on that before purchasing. but that does sound like a pretty good deal.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>I almost never used the MB-D10 with the D700. I bought the MB-D10 at the same time when I bought my D300. I prefer DX for wildlife photography where I can take advantage of 8 frames/sec. The D700 is mainly my indoor camera. I actually prefer not to have the extra grip; that was why I decided not to buy the D3.</p>

<p>Clearly I have different things in mind for "full potential": portability, something I can hold all evening shooting a party, wedding .... I don't need 8 frames/sec for those.</p>

<p>AA batteries come in many forms. If you want light weight, consider Lithium AAs, but they are expensive.</p>

[janos_kovacs]

<p> <br />1- The D3 is a professional high end camera with all the coresponding bells and whistles;<br>

2- The D700, is a high end amateur camera with all the coresponding bells and whistles;<br>

3- AF System- Although the D700 and the D3 have the same AF system, the D3 snaps into initial autofocus faster than the D700. So when it comes to aquire focus the D3 bodies are better than the D700/D300 according to T. Hogan;<br>

I noticed that myself as well. It seems this is an issue completely independent from the lens choice. In extreme low-light conditions the D700 sometimes needs a very "contrasty" surface to lock focus and "start focusing".<br>

Tracking at high frame rate seems to be more precise with the D3, whereas the D700 struggles a bit to catch up; <br />4- Image quality- According to measurements on DPR, the DR is different as well. The D3 has got 8.6 EV<br />opposed to the D700 with 7.8 EV.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Pierre,</p>

<p>So as not to take the thread too far off topic I'll message you.</p>

<p>To everybody else,</p>

<p>Many many thanks for your help here. It really has been very informative. The result? A D3 sale, I picked it up off Craigs list, under 5,000 actuations, mint condition with extra battery, charger, box, paperwork, and original receipt, for $2,600.</p>

<p>My reasoning, for what its worth, is this. To me AF is everything, that is the main reason I got a $4,000 Canon over a $2,000 Canon, there does seem to be some feeling that the D3 does actually acquire focus faster, only a little, but a little can be a lot in many situations. Also, the drive situation, I would want the En-El4 capability, this makes the price difference negligible. Add on the other nice things like 100% viewfinder then it overcomes the one reason I really preferred the D700, the self cleaning sensor.</p>

<p>Thanks again everybody, Scott.</p><div></div>

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Congrats, I hope you're very happy together! </p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>under 5,000 actuations, mint condition with extra battery, charger, box, paperwork, and original receipt, for $2,600.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's a steal - congratulations.</p>

[scott_pogorelc]

<p>In my best Obi-wan Kenobi voice: "Scott Ferris was seduced by the <em>dark</em> side of the The Force..." Seriously, welcome to the fold - we post pix on Wednesdays - looking forward to your fine work.</p>

[tom_boston1]

Weather sealing is not an issue on the D3. See link <a href="http://www.petapixel.com/2011/04/08/this-muddy-nikon-d3-

shows-the-benefits-of-weather-sealing/">here</a>. The guy dropped it in a pond and could still shoot with it. I've also seen a YouTube video of a guy dumping all sorts of junk on his D3 and rinsing it off with a bucket of water. Just google D3 torture test.

[mike_halliwell]

<p>Tom, thanks for that. Very Helpful. Would you do this with your own D3?</p>

<p>No, thought not!</p>

<p>How about you pay for all the repairs on D3's for water damage for the next 6 months and then come back and tell us how good the weather sealing is? ;-)</p>

[anthony_negron]

<p>In short, the D700 is a better buy than the D3.<br>

If you really need the performance increase, spend more and go with the D3S. Otherwise, you're getting less ISO performance than the D700. Plus a far clunkier camera.<br>

What is "pro" is what is "amateur" is dependent on the person using the camera.<br>

I shoot indoor concerts with difficult lighting with the D700 and get good results. I imagine it would do well at weddings, too. If I needed to shoot race cars full-time, I'd get the D3S, not the D3.</p>