Where are we, Very strange...

[michel_vandeput]

Dear Leica friends,

Yesterday, my local Leica dealer told me about a discussion he had

with the area manager during his last visit to Leica Solms.

What is the Leica opinion about us???

The typical Leica M owner or photographer seems to be at least 40

years old, most of them are over the 60. Very few (close to none)

between 20 and 40.

More than 30% are only collectors or don't take more than 10 rolls a

year. Most of all the M cameras ever made are sleeping in a

collector's showcase.

The price is a minor problem and does not affect commercial success.

The advertising isn't indispensable, a Leica buyer knows exactly what

he needs when he enters the shop.

Slow in innovation, the M (relatively old ! ) owners are not

interrested in up to date electronical technology.

How do you feel about it, I think this semms to be relatively

realistic but disturbing about the Leica M owner's age (It means that

M cameras could disappear in a ten years )...

For me, I am 52 and take about 50 rolls a year. And you?

Best regards from Belgium.

Michel

[david www.davidazia.com]

I'm 19 and use a Leica M. My camera certainly doesn't sit in my bag, and countless rolls go through it.

 

Young people tend to be dissuaded by the high price of the Leica M and would rather put their money in something that is modern and cheaper. Makes sense.

 

I think it's also because most people who do take photography seriously start with SLRs and don't like the M viewfinder. Most of my friends think it's rather strange that I use a viewfinder camera instead of an SLR camera.<div></div>

[lee_shively]

I'm 55 (and don't intend to disappear in 10 years) and just bought the second Leica M I've ever owned. My first was bought when I was in my 30's and I used it professionally. Price was a definite consideration for me because I bought used and I saved and considered long and hard before making the purchase. Technology? Well, I'm not too interested in digital photography but I do scan and print my own photos and I use Canon EOS cameras and lenses with autofocus and all the Canon bells and whistles. Collector? I think not. I shoot one to three rolls of film a week as a hobby. So, this observation is partially correct from my perspective.

[karl_yik1]

I think with the return of the popularity of rangefinder cameras, such Contax G,VC Bessas and Leica M being the top of the dream list, I would expect Leica's figures to be slightly outdated! I would gather that most users would be elderly because thats what they used in their youth when nothing else was available, and dont see the point of these modern automated plastic affairs, especially when their old cameras took better quality pictures.

 

As with all things though its a very personal choice, A leica M is very similar to many other old technologies such as mechanical watches, hifi tube amplifiers, vinyl record players, all of which have their own unique signature and I bet you my 2 cents, if they are well made, they will still be popular when all these other fads have faded.

 

Im 29, though didnt appreciate Leica until recently!

[michael_kastner]

I just turned 56 and will take 56 rolls this year. Next year, one more, etc. Now as to the number of M-bodies and lenses...

[frank]

Tomorrow in sixty years I'll be 100 ;-) Bought my first M more

than seven years ago when I stopped working as an editor for a

photomagazine. I gave it to myself as a farewell present.

Meanwhile I use three of these crazy Ms, two G2 and two Mamiya

7. Yes, and I can tell you exactly why I need all these cameras

:-) Wonder what kind of cameras I will use when I'm in perfect

Leica age 60 plus?

:-)

 

Frank

[thomas_krantz3]

I'm 35, have been a photog since I was 18. Owns a IIIF, M3 and M6 with 8 lenses. I use all of them extensively, process my own film (100% TriX) and enlarge on Focomat 1C late grey model). I shoot about 100-150 rolls a year. So much for statistics!

 

Thomas Krantz

[bobtodrick]

I too think the above is somewhat out of date. I'm 47 and had my first Leica (an M4) when I was 25, but didn't keep it because it was not versatile enough for what I was doing at the time. I think that is why SLR are so much more popular than the rangefinder. When first starting out most shooters want to be able to do as much as possible and the most bang for the buck is the modern SLR. I don't really buy the price constraints because there are a heck of a lot of 20 somethings hauling full EOS-1 or F5 kits around and with good zooms that's easily as expensive as an M kit. I really do think that for most a rangefinder comes later in life. You spend the first 10 years of your shooting experience deciding what you really like to shoot....if it's c/u of flowers you narrow it to one kit....nature another, etc. If low light candid shooting or the like is what you really like to do you gravitate towards a rangefinder.

[dale_griffith]

I'm 50 and just got my first Leica M a little over a year ago. I've always wanted one since I bought my first quality 35mm camera in 1976. As a young man though, the price was out of my reach. Now, as a 50 yr old with the house paid for and the kids out of college and on their own, I find I can afford M's and the lenses I want. My regret is that I didn't beg, borrow or work a second job for a while to buy Leica when I was 30. I still have my Canon EOS SLR's and Mamiya M645-1000S, but 90% or better of my shooting is now with the Leica rangefinders. I shoot 120-150 rolls per year.

[kevin m.]

I had never heard of Leica before I turned 40, so their data seems shockingly accurate in my case! More people are turning 40 every year, so there's no demographic danger of Leica losing their market!

 

Kevin Mendenhall

[al_kaplan1]

I just turned 60 2 weeks back. As a high school senior, just getting interested in photography, an older family friend and semi-pro photographer told me to buy Leica. He said nothing else was as well made. This was a wonderful time for getting into the system. Ex GI's from both WWII and Korea were dumping their Leicas for those new fangled Japanese SLR's, the used market was glutted. Other Leica photographers were dumping their screw mount bodies for the new M2 and M3 cameras, and pre-war uncoated lenses were really cheap (50/2 Summar for $15.00). A year or so later Nikon decided to get out of the Leica screw mount business, and the big mail order houses were selling Nikkor lenses for bargain prices (35/1.8 for $89.95). Then Canon abandoned the RFDR market, dumping stock on the market at bargain prices! It's a wonder that Leitz could survive with all that cheap competition.

 

Leica cameras and lenses were expensive for a young photographer if you insisted on new, or the latest model. What else could you buy that would last 40 years, put money in your pocket week after week, year after year, from selling photos, require minimum maintanance, and be worth 4 or 5 or more times than what you paid for it? Still be able to buy new lenses and accessories for it? Not Miranda or Topcon or Exakta or Alpa. Barely, for Nikon, Canon or Minolta or even Leicaflex. Looking back on it from the perspective of 40+ years, Leicas were the cheapest cameras you could buy.

[walt_delesandri]

Lets see, I'm 44, have been a photographer of one sort or another

since I was 14. Saw my first real Leica at 17, at a journalism

workshop at Trinity University in San Antonio Tx.....bought one

after I got out of high school and got a "real" job....a IIIf...

then M3....then M2 (3 of them, over the years)...Now an M4 and

M4P....wife got her first M (M4-2) at 27 or so after using

mine (we were married in 1986, this was '87 or so...

I don't buy new because I've never needed to...plus, I prefer the

M4/M2 and don't really want anything else...

 

I also drive an old car, use American made ham radio gear (Collins

and Atlas), use a Nikon F eyelevel, ride a 20 year old Cinelli

bike, design, build, and use vacuum tube audio/radio gear, carry

a Zippo lighter (I'd probably smoke Camels if I was man enough-

hehe), listen to big band music,etc....I play guitar in

a "vintage" rock and blues band (www.thesilvertones.com) and use

a Fender Tweed Deluxe knockoff...if I wore a watch, it'd be a

Rolex Submariner...you get the picture...

 

I work at the University of North Texas in the School of Visual

Arts photo dept...lotsa "vintage" folks up here--music, clothing,

etc...BUT---NO leicas....

the reason is as much that the "boomer" faculty doesn't like/promote

them--

as the price...these kids spend $20,000 on a car and $4000 a semester

on room, board, and food/entertainment...so $800 for a used Leica

ain't a problem...everyone "knows" what a Leica is, and even ogles them when seen, but hey, they have better things to do with their time/money (!!!)...

 

When they "grow" up, and want elitist things, they might buy them...

or not...Since Leica itself and the used "dealers" (bordering on

criminals) have been screwing us on EVERYTHING for 25 years, I'm

glad to see RF competition...There's no love lost between me and

Leica, dealers, or most owners...face it, reading this group or

the LUG would send MOST potential customers reeling in shock, back

to their Nikons...

 

(And if you think WE'RE nuts, I suggest you read groups directed

at Collins radio or High End Audio....hehehe....)

 

I agree that to Leica, their customers are 60 year old doctor-geezers.

Who else would buy an unproven electronic camera over the glut

of good "users" out there?...and who would pay $2000 for a lens

that can be (in practical use) equalled for $300?...today's teens

will buy my gear from the estate sale, as I did...and they'll

use it with their digital backs, their Voigtlander R7, etc...

Life will go on just fine...it always does...Hyundai/Leica will

FINALLY make an affordable camera, and everything will be fine...

 

COULDN'T happen to a nicer bunch o' folks, based on my experience

from about 1976 until the C/V stuff came out...I just hope all the

"used" dealers lose a bunch on the LTM stuff they've screwed us

on since the 70s...you know, the 35 serenars for $300, etc...long

live C/V...

 

GOD I feel better now....happy Thanksgiving to all...

Walt

[0_007]

I am 27 and use m6 for which i have paid for over a year now. I shoot around 50 rolls per year.

[alan_simon]

Wow! What an array of responses. I realized a long time ago that I don't fit any particular mold, so here goes.

 

First of all, I earn my living dealing with statistics and one of the first things you learn and appreciate is variability.

 

I'm 66+; bought my first rangefinder camera while in my teens (an early Retina, but lusted for a Leica); in my 20s, following the advice of Yale Joel, a Life photog, bought a Cannon rangefinder with 35 and 100 lenses; moved to Nikon Fs for a period; and then, finally Leica. I'm now happy to be a very satisfied M7 user. I used the M6s for about 15 years, but love the extras in the 7. I use an array of lenses from 21 up, but my new 28 'cron is my current favorite along with my 50 'cron. I shoot about 100 rolls a year-about 75% color.

 

And I expect to be shooting forever!

 

Al

[albert_smith]

I'm 44, and bought my first Leica at 30. I have had 5, now down to 2 (all Ms). I shoot in spurts, probably averaging 60 rolls a years.

[todd peach seattle, washi]

I'm 42, collecting/using Nikon SLR gear, I get a kick out of using an F2 with a 35/1.4. When I examine what I like about using that combination, it leads me to investigate going to an M? with a similar lens. Don't own any Leica gear yet, but I'm reaching an age where I can afford (barely) such extravagences. I shoot about 100 rolls a year.

[george_d._gianni]

Well, I'm 44 and have been using the same M3 since I was 16. My main cameras are SLRs and a Hexar AF but the M3 is still in occasional use (with 50+90 lenses), averaging a total of 70-80 film rolls a year.

[jay_.]

The danger in Leica's assessment of the market: they evidently feel that film and the Leica M market will die out at the same pace, and I happen to strongly disagree ;>)

I believe that it isn't the age of Leica users that is a problem, it's the rapidly-increasing numbers of converts to digital and Leica's bs that a digital M back/body/body-coversion is not possible. I forsee being forced to keep my Leicas on display rather than use them, due to a limited selection of emulsions and inconvenient logistics and exhorbitant cost of processing, long before I'm so old and doddering that I can no longer shoot.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Shot 4 rolls of 400TMAX and 2 rolls Of asa 800 color print film with my M3 in the last week.................why be normal!!!!!!!!!

[jhodges]

Well, I'm 23 and just bought my first Leica recently (an M2). I have had two Nikons (one was stolen). After using my M2 for a month now, I just don't like the feel of my F3HP. I can't ever imagine selling my M2 or putting it on a shelf. I do plan on buying an M6 sometime in the next year. New? I got into Leica to get away from the things that the M7 is about. My F3HP has auto exposure. I don't like it. Never fully trusted it. I have put more than a few rolls through it in the past few weeks. It's a tool. I can good exposures from a pinhole camera, a good exposure meter, and my mechanical wrist watch. Art, and I do think some photography is art, is never precise. If people want to believe that they can take better pictures with 10 different light readings available, built into their plastic box, more power to them. I have enough confidence in myself. So I get a few bad exposures. Next time, hopefully, I won't make the same mistakes.

[andrew_schank]

44, got my first Leica when I was 38. I shoot over 100 rolls a year, but maybe only a third of them with Leica M.

[thunderbroom]

I'm 27. bought my first leica when i was 23,an m4p. and my first lens six months later a 28mm. took me a while to pay off the credit card but it was definetly worth it. the first year i shot a hundred rolls of hp5 for a directed studies class. took a little hiatus for a while but now i shoot about 5-20 rolls a week.-daniel mcclenaghan

[kajabbi]

I will be 71 in january and have owned and used Leicas for 50 years (come july 2003)One is ALWAYS within reach.Even on the dresser table next to the bed. I shoot at least 50 rolls a year and some years three or four times that. I am not a collector. When I can no longer squeeze the shutter, I will sell all my stuff(at bargain prices) to fellow users.

[patricks]

I'm 34 and I got my first M6 almost a year ago. Didn't really need one before that (well, perhaps I don't really NEED one now either...)

 

During university I used to work in a camera store and I cannot remember a single time I recommended that any beginner/advanced amateur/pro buy a Leica rangefinder, regardless of age. 97% of what you can do with a rangefinder can be done with a SLR - I cannot say that the other way around.

 

It is hard to understand why anyone interested in general photography would start investing in Leica gear today when digital is here/around the corner. If I knew I could leverage my Leica lenses on a analog as well as digital body I might be inclined to buy more of them, but today the Leica serves me best a a low/available light environmental portrait & travel documentar machine. For the rest, I rather invest in top of the line SLR lenses that I can use on a 25MP digital body down the road.

 

Cheers,

[bobtodrick]

Jay...I just have to ask. You (as always) are touting the near instant demise of film because of all the 'converts' to digital (and yes, many shooters are switching to digital). But if you tally up the people here who have added how much they shoot...it is about 15 people shooting a total of 2000 rolls per year. That's a lot of film for only 15 people, multiply it by the thousands of Leica shooters doing likewise, then add in the many more thousands of Canon, Nikon, etc owners...film will be around a long while.