bill_burke1 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 <p>I've been shooting with models for about a year. I've mostly been doing TFCD shoots with fairly inexperienced models given that I'm not doing paid assignments, nor do I have the money to pay experienced models. For the most part, its been great learning lighting techniques and posing, and I enjoy helping new models build their portfolio's. The one thing I'm running into is that I'm getting the same expressions in every shot from every model (you know.... that mad look). I can get a variety of poses, but have no idea what to say to get a different facial expression. I've tried to suggest certain things, but their face doesn't change!!! Any ideas from experience photographers?</p><div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 <p>Get them to talk about their own life. Steer it towards different types of events based on what looks you want. Tell them stories or jokes. Just interact, and you can steer what they can't do on command.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 <p>More or less continuous banter so that the model is never left feeling awkward and wondering what the photographer wants. Lavish praise - always shoot whatever pose the model hits and then make suggestions on improvements if necessary, NEVER be negative ("No! That's no good!" etc. - amazingly I have heard camera club types saying this). As in many situations, if you can get the model to laugh, you are well on the way to winning. Inexperienced models will do their impression of a photo model if left feeling vulnerable and without direction. Shoot a LOT of pictures with beginner models - keep the session flowing. Concentrate totally on the model - do not fiddle with equipment. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_wilson1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 <p>What Jeff said, I was going to write the exact thing without even reading his. You must build that relationship however brief or seemingly meaningless.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan_stiles Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 <p> Both of the above are good. I whole heartedly agree with David's "never be negative". If you are getting one expression, then it's possible the model thinks they are doing the only "model" look out there. I sometimes tell a nervous model to not worry about it, and give me whatever they think of-- if it looks bad, I remind them I can delete it; but I can't add what they never give.</p> <p> I'd also work on my vocab for what you want. I had a situation where I was shooting lingerie for a catalog bid, and all I got was "sexy", when I needed "light and happy". I had to remind almost every model of this several times-- the key is to be gentle about it and positive. Oh, and always confident, or they will be nervous.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswms Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 <p> I wholeheartedly disagree with the previously posted methodology. I work with models who expect to sign with a major agency and book national campaigns as a direct result of their time and money spent with me and they learn quickly and in no uncertain terms before hiring me exactly what to expect. Think more profanity laced in your face men's college basketball coach and less kindergarten teacher at art period. </p> <p>I rarely shoot more than 5 or 6 frames at a time. I direct every aspect of the model's position from jaw line and eye direction to the angle of the fingers. I control hair, any makeup, clothing, props and backgrounds. I fiddle with exposure constantly. I rehearse, and when on location we walk through each set up before we unpack and I tell them exactly what they will be doing. The how, the why and the rationale behind it. To spend one minute shooting images that are useless is a waste of time and resources and condescending to the intelligence of the client who hired me. </p> <p>With suitable prep I have few problems but I'll call someone on a mistake immediately and in my opinion that shows far more commitment to the task at hand than coddling them along. Models also learn faster and can depend on praise to be genuine. They love that- knowing exactly where they stand and how they're doing in relation to the people who came before. There are only so many minutes of great light in a day and there is work to be done.</p> <p>My clients are expected to be able to go directly from working with me to a four figure a day job and they have to be able to get it right from day one- even if the shooter turns out to be of the spray and pray <em>do it</em> variety.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 <p>Dennis, if your technique works for you, great – I just didn’t know that the Marine Corps trained fashion photographers. I find your comments about a wasted minute strange – one minute to get the model relaxed sounds like a good investment to me. There is no question of “spray and pray” – I know what I want and whether a shot is good or not, but my response to mediocrity is to tell the model “That’s good, but let’s try something better!” rather than “That’s garbage – drop and give me twenty!” <br> I have to say that your technique is totally at variance with that of all the other pro shooters I’ve ever known. In point of fact I used to find I’d get what I wanted with just one roll of 120 (10 shots), but I would unhesitatingly expend more film or memory card if necessary – the cost of this in relation to the overall cost of a shoot is insignificant. Yes, models with sufficient experience to be ready to turn pro should be capable of delivering on demand and taking direction – the OP is not working with this type of model but with complete amateurs</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan_stiles Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 <p>The OP is new to shooting models and doing TFP. I'm wondering how successful Dennis's style would be prior to him having credentials and a portfolio. At no time during a shoot do I not instruct them on what I want.</p> <p>In addition I started to see a problem in my work when I did control every aspect of a models pose-- all my shots started to look a like. I found it much more successful, for me, to allow them to pose and correct the parts I didn't like. I also found that after striking a pose, telling them "no" then led me back into having to tell them everything to do again.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 <blockquote> <p> I just didn’t know that the Marine Corps trained fashion photographers</p> </blockquote> <p>Touché.</p> <blockquote> <p>My clients are expected to be able to go directly from working with me to a four figure a day job </p> </blockquote> <p>Congratulations! Pat yourself on the back a few more times!</p> <blockquote> <p> I'm wondering how successful Dennis's style would be prior to him having credentials and a portfolio. </p> </blockquote> <p>Not at all. Dennis just likes to tell everyone how important his shoots are and how irrelevant theirs are. Notice that there isn't the least bit of help offered to someone fairly new to this.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_h5 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 <p>I am only chiming in because after reading everyones comments to Dennis's <strong>"Drill Sergeant </strong>" model technique approach, I found this thread just hilarious, it gave me a good chuckle. I almost fell off my chair after reading Dennis's "model techniques".</p> <p>I will have to admit my model techniques have always been the exact opposite of Dennis's "Drill Sergeant" approach. I think most other professional photographers techniques are the opposite of this approach as well. I have always been encouraging, soft spoken...ect. But maybe some really really bad models out there need or deserve something like this just to get them back in line and to take modeling seriously...then maybe they would appreciate the correct way of model direction?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_k1664875007 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 <p>At the risk of being scorned too, I must say I totally agree with Dennis Williams.</p> <p>Maybe his wording may sound a bit harsh, but IMO his way of working suits the reality when shooting models to prepare them to be actual working models in the real world, and provide them with pictures which will actually get them work.</p> <p>The relation between the model and photographer is that of, or at least should be that of professionals. Sure, burning them down for every mistake obviously isn't the way to get someone motivated, but that goes for any job.</p> <p>But sweet talking every mistake of the model isn't professional either, and better suited as a pick up line in a bar, and eventually will only work out in the proverbial 'spare the rod, spoil the child'. I get the impression most posters don't know what (verbal) abuse beginning working models have to endure when starting their career, or the way they at times get turned down at eg castings.</p> <p>All that talk of asking the models to 'give what I want'only reminds me of the kind of B-movies and TV series where the slik photographer moans from behind his camera "Oh yes baby, do it to me, make love with the camera'.</p> <p>And with all due respect that kind of lack of direction and ego tripping will result in the kind of picture the OP posted, sure probably nice for him to show his fellow TFCD photographers what he did last weekend, but not even remotedly what a serious model agency needs or can use due to the forced unnatural pose, clownesque make up and lack of cohesion between picture, pose and make up and 'styling'.</p> <p>So yes, for only for fun intended TFCD shooting for amateur use, the method recommended by most posters will work out fine and cause no harm as the models will most likely never work seriously, and at the end of the day basically the result aimed for is 'and a good time was had by all'. But for real working models with serious agencies, the standards are really much higher, and there really is no need to sweeten things up and stop being professional.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 <blockquote> <p>So yes, for only for fun intended TFCD shooting for amateur use</p> </blockquote> <p>That's exactly what the OP said he is doing. And that's what most of the answers were there for. If you don't bother to carefully read, you end up with posts that have nothing to do with what the OP is looking for. It may massage the ego, but it doesn't help the OP.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 <p><em>I get the impression most posters don't know what (verbal) abuse beginning working models have to endure when starting their career, or the way they at times get turned down at eg castings.</em><br> Oh yes I do, Paul! In the course of a 45-year career I have been professionally active in the fields of writing, photography, acting and music (in that order in terms of the amount of time spent on each) and have extensive experience of teaching young practitioners in each of these fields.<br> Based on this and my own philosophical inclination, I have always used a gentle approach – I am well aware that others don’t, but I have found in every case that if you asking a beginner to improve their performance, this will happen faster if they’re not terrified, bursting in tears or throwing up! I work to the highest international standards and expect others to do so, as well, and an occasional sharp word may be necessary to shake people out of laziness, but bullying as a general teaching technique I find both unpleasant and, more to the point, ineffective.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan_schurman1 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 <p>I'm surprised that a thorough pro like Dennis would even be reading this thread..and at 3:39 p.m. on a weekday afternoon.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 <p><em> [the] (verbal) abuse [which] beginning working models have to endure when starting their career ...</em><br> Just a final thought, which others may care to comment on. Working with other creative people is normally a pleasure based on mutual respect between professionals (give or take the odd tantrum!) but occasionally creative professionals will find themselves confronted with someone (usually a client) who is totally ignorant and unreasonable and cannot do anything but shout something along the lines of "That's garbage, I want it better!" (no further explanation, liberal helping of 4-letter words likely). <br> It is of course necessary to be able to deal with this - my (and most other people's) experience has been that the best thing is to say calmly "Look I'm a trained and experienced professional. I could do this ways A, B, C or D, what do you want?" In order to be able to do this, the creative professional concerned needs a good level of self-confidence, which they are really not likely to achieve if they've been trained by someone whose attitude is "I'll shout at them now, so that they get used to it"!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_k1664875007 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 <p>It's quite amusing to see that for some correcting a model with other then sweetwords despite my earlier statement</p> <p>'The relation between the model and photographer is that of, or at least should be that of professionals. Sure, burning them down for every mistake obviously isn't the way to get someone motivated, but that goes for any job.'</p> <p>is thought to be similar to verbal abuse by bullying and shouting, and that that only seems to be the only alternative.</p> <p>Maybe it does really take some real life experience in fashion and photography to be able to understand that you don't need to shout or call names to get someone completely demolished and shaken, and thus understand my remark</p> <p>'I get the impression most posters don't know what (verbal) abuse beginning working models have to endure when starting their career, or the way they at times get turned down at eg castings.'</p> <p>and that consequently being told during a shoot they are not behaving professionally, or in this case pose unnaturally or just plain badly, in other then sweet talk may be the least of their worries and maybe least abusive experiences in their intended careers.</p> <p>At times it may be very much necessary to make yourself really very clearly understood to avoid that things get out of hand. Because if things go well, at the end of the day everybody will claim their part of the responsibility for the succes. But if they don't and have gone bad it's the photographer who gets the blame.</p> <p>Or is it in that case all of a sudden correct for the photographer to start blaming everybody else, even the model, because he of course is not responsible for getting the right conditions for getting the pictures, but only has to do 'click' when everything is handed over picture-perfect and ready to him?</p> <p>Or maybe a photographer is better equipped to take the blame because he can always point his finger at his equipment which for unexplicable reasons suddenly stopped taking the right pictures?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhbebb Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 <p>Paul, I think I could understand you a lot better if in just a few words you could<br> a) describe your own "real life experience in fashion and photography" and<br> b) explain simply how you feel the OP should direct his models</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_k1664875007 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 <p>' David Bebbington , Jan 20, 2012; 03:58 a.m.<br> Paul, I think I could understand you a lot better if in just a few words you could<br> a) describe your own "real life experience in fashion and photography" and<br> b) explain simply how you feel the OP should direct his models '</p> <p>Hi Joe</p> <p>myself:<br> studied and got my licence at the Royal Academy of Arts in the Hague in the Netherlands<br> Already before passing my exams made several trips abroad for networking and experience, including Paris (Agence Karin, Ford, Thierry Mugler) and London (Elle, Vogue, Face, Premier Models, Models One Elite, Z Models)<br> After I finished school in 1988, I went to live in Italy for a year (Florence : Palimoda, Eva and Adamo Agency, Milan: Elite, Fashion, Mondadori, Conde Nast)<br> After I returned in Amsterdam did my chores over there (Ulla, Elite, Corines, Avant Garde Magazine, VNU, Elegance) and as well as elsewhere in Europe (Dusseldorf, Brussel, Antwerp) In ca 1994 I started getting problems with my eyes due to which I was forced to end my career as a pro fashion photographer.</p> <p>Nowadays I, thanks to the great progress in AF, picked up photography again, on a semi pro base, mostly shoot catwalk, surf, and occasionally a bit of fashion and models (see my profile for a link to my site)</p> <p>In another thread on photonet I already explained how I see that a photographer has to prepare himself for a shoot so if you don't mind I posting the link http://www.photo.net/portraits-and-fashion-photography-forum/00ZjFC</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_wilson1 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 <p>I don't know,,,, I've worked with some pretty established models and agencies in the past, and I never was even remotely abusive or forceful toward any of the models. I guess I should have known better... My roll was primarily limited to shooting, there were other staff involved in the rest, but we were all just going about our business. Sure, things get a little crazy, but it all works rather pleasantly overall.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_gardiner Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 <blockquote> <p>I wholeheartedly disagree with the previously posted methodology. I work with models who expect to sign with a major agency and book national campaigns as a direct result of their time and money spent with me and they learn quickly and in no uncertain terms before hiring me exactly what to expect. Think more profanity laced in your face men's college basketball coach and less kindergarten teacher at art period.</p> </blockquote> <p>Reminds me of the classic scene with David Hemmings playing the photographer shooting fashion models in Antonioni's 'Blow Up'<br /> 'Who's chewing gum? - spit it out now! ....not on my floor!'</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_barker1 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 <p>I'm doubting that the OP is going to benefit from the brutal "in your face" approach when he is still learning. And when he is working with aspiring models who also are learning. These aren't seasoned pros or models ready to make the jump to pro shoots.<br> I've been doing a lot of the same type of shoots as the OP over the last two years, working with a range that includes first-time models and veterans. And I have found that the friendlier approach works very well for me.<br> I talk a lot during shoots. Never too personal. You don't come across as a creep. And there is always some sort of music playing - just to avoid uncomfortable silences. I may, at times, suggest they channel some emotion - happy, sad, anger, fear. Some can do it. Some can't.<br> I personally prefer moodier images, so I don't look for a lot of smiles. But you can see some of my work at www.timbarker.com.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 <blockquote> <p>I'm doubting that the OP is going to benefit from the brutal "in your face" approach when he is still learning.</p> </blockquote> <p><br />Well even Paul K agreed with that, although he didn't realize it, he just didn't carefully read the post. If he had, he would have seen that second sentence.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsphotoguy Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 <p>A big part of this is finding what works for you and also provides you with models who are willing to be positive references to others. Last year I had someone who was just beginning to do nude sessions who checked with other models I had worked with. They gave good feedback which went a long way to starting things off well with the new model. There is nothing worse then having a model who is not comfortable.<br> High end fashion sessions might be different then shooting art images but I'm not in the business of preparing anyone for that "reality". </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_h5 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 <blockquote> <p>A big part of this is finding what works for you and also provides you with models who are willing to be positive references to others.</p> </blockquote> <p>I totally agree with Mark who brings up a great point! Not only does Dennis's <strong>"Drill Sergeant </strong>" model technique not work with most photographers and models either pro or beginner (I am sure there are a few like Dennis that use only this approach), it would actually even backfire and the photographer would become a negative reference for other models. This applies to fashion, glamour, fine art...ect. Models talk! and they talk a lot to not only other models but their agency as well. She will report the photographer to the agency as a bully or tyrant (especially if she is the agency's star model) and word will get around and other models will avoid the photographer as well as agencies as someone who is insulting, condecending, harrassing, sceaming, nasty and demeaning ... ect, something you should expect *only* in the Marine Corps and not on a professional photo shoot. Not only do I not use the Drill Sergeant approach but every other professional photographer I have personally seen on the photo shoot has NEVER used the Drill Sergeant approach and these are published photographers with decades of experience working with BOTH beginner and pro models.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_wilson1 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 <p>I'd be curious to know if Bill, the OP, got much of anything from this thread. I think in several ways it has failed miserably in it's ability to provide much of anything educationally. Sorry to be blunt, but that's how I see it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now